Trade Participation on Pricescope

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

So, in your mind, PS is best when the trade members/experts discuss and debate, focusing on the scientific and technical aspects of diamonds, informing the consumers and pro-sumers who are then the "front line" when it comes to the random person coming on here asking for help in finding a great RB/cushion/EC? Therefore if those discussions aren't happening, the higher level education also isn't happening and the quality of the advice being given is diminished?

yes, that and better explain existing technology and standards.
What is missing is more experts who can do that.
There are several of them I would love to cover but paying rent has to come first.
What is not needed is experts pushing agendas and sales, they aren't all that desirable and can be counterproductive.

Which is why I think a separate cut study sub-forum is needed.
RT moves to fast and someone who only has time to post once a week is never going to find the threads they can help on.
It will also help keep it out of consumers threads.

I disagree Karl,
An important PS feature is that consumers get educated and are able to help newbies overcome their fears of diamond buying.
Few will likely read pure techy forums, and the experts might live there never hlping consmers.
I think Ella that you maybe did not get this either from something you mentioned in an earlier post - that is why I like the idea of John's - rename a thread after the newbie has been helped - its a valuable threadjack!

 

[Laila619]

I agree with Rockdiamond here. This stuff with Kenny and CCL is getting old. We *get* that you don't like Rockdiamond's philosophies. Move on. Your attacks are personal at this point. Plenty of people have bought from Diamonds by Lauren and from what I've heard, the reviews have been nothing but positive.

I can guarantee you that other forum members are tired of reading the same arguments and having to scroll through all the muck as well. When you try to silence anyone who disagrees with the majority, the forum gets boring and insular pretty quickly.

 

[Karl_K]

I disagree Karl,
An important PS feature is that consumers get educated and are able to help newbies overcome their fears of diamond buying.
Few will likely read pure techy forums, and the experts might live there never hlping consmers.
I think Ella that you maybe did not get this either from something you mentioned in an earlier post - that is why I like the idea of John's - rename a thread after the newbie has been helped - its a valuable threadjack!

Those consumers who are interested in learning would hang out there then take that knowledge to RT.

 

[LadyBlue]

I agree with Rockdiamond here. This stuff with Kenny and CCL is getting old. We *get* that you don't like Rockdiamond's philosophies. Move on. Your attacks are personal at this point. Plenty of people have bought from Diamonds by Lauren and from what I've heard, the reviews have been nothing but positive.

I can guarantee you that other forum members are tired of reading the same arguments and having to scroll through all the muck as well. When you try to silence anyone who disagrees with the majority, the forum gets boring and insular pretty quickly.

+1 and I don't understand why the moderators don't do anything about it. For me their comments cross the line and bring a very disrespectful environment.

 

[slg47]

I wasn't here, but this is what I suspect-it has to do with what I posted earlier about scientific discourse.

I imagine that at first things were amicable but then the posters who participate in scientific discourse got frustrated with the ones who did not. This turned into a general ignoring of such posters and personal attacks (which I do not condone but I understand). I can imagine it is really frustrating for those who want to educate and learn to have to deal with people who aren't willing to play by the rules, and simply claim ignorance.

Speaking of-I saw a quote today. it went something like this-"ignorance is often not a vacuum waiting to be filled, but rather a wall carefully maintained"

 

[digitaldevo]

Jamey,

Have you ever noticed how the tone of your posts and the argumentative nature of them leads to negative responses from others?

When you use capitals people interpet it as shouting.

Tone? I think folks are reading into things they want to see. There was no tone in that thread at all. Straight forward and to the point, yes. I am a blunt person, on the internet and face to face, just how I am. Anyone who has met me or knows me will tell you AI am one of the nicest folks they've ever met, I am just blunt and call it as I see it. Blame my law enforcement training and years doing it for that I guess. I also saw nothing argumentative. I merely corrected some wild misconceptions about photography and corrected misinformation being given? Is that not what these forums are for? Or are we to just allow folks to spout misinformation and allow others to get hurt by it? Think how many vendors would be penalized for heavily editing their images had the misinformation not been corrected!

All capitals is what is considered shouting, not capitalizing a single word or small phrase, that is considered adding emphasis to them. When using my cell phone to post I can not use bold or underline so I have to put in capitols in order to emphasize it.

Lots of great information in your posts but way too long as well.
When you write such long posts, the important point or points can be lost, its easy for someone with a differing viewpoint to pick up one unclear sentence and pick on that..

Well, I write whatever it takes for the explanation or the information that needs to be given spelled out simple enough for everyone to understand, not always able to be done in a short post. As for one person picking up an unclear sentence and and then "pick on that", how is that my fault? If they wouldn't be looking for a confrontation from the start they wouldn't focus on a single unclear sentence and "pick" on it, plain and simple. Those looking for an argument or a chest pound are the ones who do that.

However your often caustic and long winded posting style makes it very difficult to understand and support your points.

Again I don't see anything caustic at all, not even remotely in the post your link takes me to, and if it could be put into short posts I would. And that post was also very short. Simple, long winded, don't like, don't bother to read them then, sorry, I write how I write. Can only do so how my brain works, sometimes it works oddly I will fully admit, but I suffer from RSD/CRPS ( http://www.rsdhope.org ) and between only sleeping 2-3hrs per day every day, having to take all these medications I have to to stay alive, and the fact that between the RSD + sleep deprivation + Pain 4 notches higher on pain scale above that of cancer + the meds all cause massive short term memory loss and I have to drill things over and over again into long term memory or I will not remember them even a few hours, sometimes even minutes, later, sometimes things come out a bit winded and bouncing but that is beyond my control. Then add in syncopes(brain short circuits and shuts body down from pain and I go into a seizure like state and then out cold) from the pain on a regular basis and seizure like episodes, it is a miracle I can do what I do and remember what I do remember, so I do the best I can. Pretty simple I think, no?

But by your own statements and feelings is it really proper to start hounding some one about their posting and writing style just because you don;t like it, and doing so publicly? I fail to see any difference.

I fail to see the relevance of the arguments you are having over in CS to admin policies. I have been reprimanded in the past for the same writing style you exhibit. I think lately the mods are very relaxed, but you are really crying foul? You would be the first to be censured if anyone in that thread.

You posted that here as support for allowing you to post photographs? Even ones for sale? I just don't get your argument.

Hmmm... a member comes in making snide and condescending comments and I am the one who is in the wrong!!?? That is absurd, I am sorry.

You posted that here as support for allowing you to post photographs? Even ones for sale? I just don't get your argument.

Support for allowing trades people to post photos in thread to help or participate with the topic of the thread. The images I posted were doing exactly that and nothing more, they were not even in her stock nor for sale currently at her business, some were research samples, some my own personal collection, some her own personal collection, etc. But none were for sale nor in her stock system even.

I never stated allow posting explicit for sale ads, no. I posted that there is no reason an image can't be posted, or even a link to an image hosting website containing the image(which is what I actually got nailed for as well) which I did so as to try and make sure I was following the rules, but apparently not good enough, obviously... but that no reason an image can not be posted to share in a thread or as an educational deal in a thread when there is no accompanying sales bs of the like with it in the post. Or just a link to said images as long as they are on an imaging sharing or hosting website and not the users commercial website.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Speaking of-I saw a quote today. it went something like this-"ignorance is often not a vacuum waiting to be filled, but rather a wall carefully maintained"

Love the quote!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Speaking of-I saw a quote today. it went something like this-"ignorance is often not a vacuum waiting to be filled, but rather a wall carefully maintained"

Love the quote!

Me too.

Neil you mentioned a concerted effort whereby many experts decidede to ignore RD's incitful (not insightful) posts - the idea being so he did not get the self promotion he seems to seek.
I did that until in the recent crushed ice thread.
I sought to show how ASET could be useful for selecting diamonds with the best crushed ice appearance. Now RD sought at every twist and turn to po-hoo my genuine and effort-filled posts. I was not arguing. (I hope it helped a lot of enthusiast consumers too?).
Now either RD is really very very thick (which I totally doubt) or he had to keep his obscuration alive and hold his "trust only my eyes" line. I have no doubt that by now he has learned to use ASET to select different attributes in fancy shapes - he may even secretly practice it.
Would I repeat that time investment again? Probably not because it is very very frustrating. And it was probably only worthwhile becuase it helped several people following the discussion. It also helped me learn and test concepts.

The point that I am making is this type of debate and discussion IS the peer review process. It is probably the only version of it alive and well on Pricescope at present; sadly driven by xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx edited out.

Imagine how it would be if we did have really smart new people joining in these debates all the time. Imagine if we did not have the likes of the very bright consumers who get frustrated with RD (and other vendors and experts before him).

So I say let RD whine, let people attack him. Sorry for newbies that the place appears a bit untidy. And lets invite as many people with as divergent views as possible to participate. Share their alternate views and defend them. And not just trade people - minerologists, physiscsts and all professions as well as consumers who just want to know what to buy.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I disagree Karl,
An important PS feature is that consumers get educated and are able to help newbies overcome their fears of diamond buying.
Few will likely read pure techy forums, and the experts might live there never hlping consmers.
I think Ella that you maybe did not get this either from something you mentioned in an earlier post - that is why I like the idea of John's - rename a thread after the newbie has been helped - its a valuable threadjack!

Those consumers who are interested in learning would hang out there then take that knowledge to RT.

I do not believe it

 

[risingsun]

There appears to be a lot of antagonism on PS these days among trade members, trade members and consumers, and among consumers. While there is nothing wrong with a spirited debate, some posters seem to get away with being rude, condescending and
sarcastic. I am getting to the point where I hesitate to post an opinion anymore. Many of our long-term members have left PS because of the current environment. I am not talking about being PC. I am referring to basic civility. You can have differences of opinion without resorting to these types of behaviors. We are losing credibility and I am not alone in this opinion.

 

[slg47]

for some reason it won't let me edit my post, but now I remember it was "a wall that is actively maintained"

it would be nice if we could have debates where people from different viewpoints were contributing and playing by the rules.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

I just found this thread, and its actually pretty timely to my situation with Pricescope. I haven't posted in quite a while, and it is at least partially due to the reasons that have been discussed earlier in the thread. I used to make it a habit of reading the threads, and jumping in about once or twice a day where appropriate. However, I have recently been quite busy, and Its hard for me to justify giving so much time to something which as off yet has hardly yielded any business for me. In fact the only significant piece of business I have received from Pricescope was from reaching out to a poster in additional to a timely answer to her question. This was not allowed of course, and the moderators quickly edited the post to prevent me from earning business through the forum this way, but the poster was so pleased with my response that they sought me out anyways. This was quite a while ago and no new business has come to me from Pricescope. My private sales and other ventures are growing greatly and I would be a fool not invest my time and energy there where my efforts are being rewarded with new business and referrals.

Pricescope is over-moderated, or rather the rules are way to strict and over-enforced. I think one of the last posts I made was in one of the lifestyle threads about organic farm CSA shares. My post was deleted because I mentioned my own farm's name and pricing in the response. (which would be considered typical and the answer to the posters question) I then received an email from the moderator saying that they would only allow posts if my responses were general without mentioning my own business. This is too much to ask from a busy entrepreneur, and left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I haven't yet established my fortune, (like almost all business people) and I can not afford to give my services, expertise, and time away without thought for compensation.

I would certainly post more if i had more freedom and potential to earn business. And I do say earn business, because the readers here are the best informed diamond buyers in the world, and they demand the finest product at the best value possible. If there were real ways for relatively new players to earn more business through Pricescope, than everyone's experience will be improved because of the added richness in content and dialogue.

I'll be honest, I miss posting more often and adding my small piece to the tapestry, but I have to feel welcomed and free to be me, and this includes earning a buck. This is an important conversation to be having, and hopefully Pricescope can become a better place for everyone because of it.

 

[kenny]

So I say let RD whine, let people attack him.

I do not attack him.
IMHO, I react in a way that is appropriate for what he's trying to get away with, which some are apparently too naive to see.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Oh, and the personal attacks surrounding a simple difference of opinion really dont help anything..

We must accept that there are many different opinions on what makes a beautiful diamond. While we can use scientific instruments to measure optics objectively, I maintain that beauty is something distinct, and to try to distill this very ethereal quality into angles, numbers and colors, is greatly missing the point in my opinion.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

So I say let RD whine, let people attack him.

I do not attack him.
IMHO, I react in a way that is appropriate for what he's trying to get away with, which some are apparently too naive to see.

I should have said "attack and challenge his opinions".
I agree we should not attack the person.

 

[kenny]

I should have said "attack and challenge his opinions".

But then he wins.
That is exactly what he wants.
That keeps him posting more so his sales link is seen by of zillions of diamond-shopping eyeballs around the world, all day long, every day, for free.
The longer he can manage to keep people arguing with him, or "teaching him" the same thing over and over and over, the more click-throughs he gets.
This is the reality of the Internet age; this is how it works.

If you don't want to reward such behavior it is best to see this for what it is, and just ignore all the brilliant, seductive, involving, tempting bait he throws out.

Hold your tongue.
Don't fall for it.
Just let any misinformation (the most successful bait of all) remain unchallenged, uncorrected and undiscussed.
Don't fall for the trick of showing how much you know.

Let such threads quickly sink away from the eyeballs.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Kenny the topic is bigger than RD.
Pricescope is bigger than RD.

 

[Imdanny]

I think many of the 'old pros' planted their seeds long ago and are simply reaping the harvest now. Not that they don't deserve it, but it is what it is. Sure...they will water the plants and pull the weeds from time to time, let everybody know about a new tree they planted or some sweet fruit that is available, but they are past the breaking ground phase. Over the years, guard dogs have been established to protect the farm, so they rarely have to do the barking. New farmers pass by, see that the farm is well established and well guarded, but test the gates anyway to see if there is any way that they can get in to plant their seeds in the very fertile ground. The guard dogs, who never seem to sleep, spring into action and run them off. They fight back, but the guard dogs, being guard dogs, win. Now we are left with a few great farmers who have little incentive to actively work the ground...and their trusty guard dogs. Diamonds on this forum have been reduced to three vendors and two or three cuts placed in a setting made by one person. Open the gates to new vendors and unleash some of the less favored. Likewise, let the heavily favored defend their ground on a level playing field. Heated conversation and open competition is not a bad thing. For the record....I'm a buyer...not a seller.

And a poet apparently.

 

[Imdanny]

I don’t think I would change much in the way that regulates the way that RD, you, Kenny, Karl, Garry et.al. post.
I’m a big fan of civility and I would advise the lot of you to simply stay out the fights with him and don’t rise to the bait.

It’s not worth the time and, as Kenny points out, I think it’s benefiting him more than you know.

Finally another person wakes up and smells the coffee.
I was beginning to think I was insane.

Besides refusing to be manipulated into sending eyeballs to that sales website, I've learned in the years I've watched those threads that no good ever results from intentionally flying into a web.

Maybe I'd talk to him after he deleted his sales link for, say, a year.

Kenny, I love you like a brother but you seem to have a personal problem with RD. If his faults are egregious maybe you should report him to admin. I'm not as emotionally invested in PS as you and I never will be but from my humble perspective maybe you should pull back on your negative feelings for this one vendor. It might just be better for you, you know? Just a thought.

 

[that_someone_special]

I wanted to mention something a little unrelated to the last few posts: PICTURES.. specifically vendor pictures.

I find it horrible that logos have to be taken off of vendor pictures now. I really don't think it's right. When the announcement was first made I was afraid to say anything about it because it seemed so many people were just "ok" with it. My view is that these diamonds and pictures are not just ordinary pictures. They are specific pictures of a diamond that was purchased. Maybe people get "glamour shots" of their diamonds and proudly like to show them here. In a perfect world, no one would be stealing pictures off of the internet for business use or to deceive another buyer (as in, saving images here and using them on eBay or another diamond site to say this is what the diamond looks like- when it really isn't). The vendors that put time and creative input into their photography of their diamonds deserve to have the logos on them! I don't find it biased or unfair if pictures are posted on the site via the consumer. I honestly don't see how that is even an issue! It is not these vendors faults if they are doing a lot of business and thus their logo is in a lot of pictures. Anyways, from a consumer and an artist, this issue bothers me extremely. No one should have to exclude or cover up logos to make it an even playing field.

The other point is that when people save images from PS a lot of times they can't remember who made the ring or item and it would be beneficial to have the logos on the pictures. Not to mention less threads of "I saved this picture and I can't remember who made it..."

What about a watermark feature? When images are uploaded you can put in the vendor and it will be watermarked so if someone saves it, they can't just steal the picture? I don't know the answer but I'm guessing if a consumer has this big of an issue with the pictures not having logos that some vendors are not happy with this either.

 

[kenny]

Thanks Garry and Danny.
Now that I've been allowed to get my opinion off my chest I'll do my best to just let it go.
If it continues then it is because admin and the PS community know of what I suspect and just don't care, or that I'm wrong.

 

[blueiris]

I should have said "attack and challenge his opinions".

That keeps him posting more so his sales link is seen by of zillions of diamond-shopping eyeballs around the world, all day long, every day, for free.
The longer he can manage to keep people arguing with him, or "teaching him" the same thing over and over and over, the more click-throughs he gets.

Kenny: I'm quite new here so excuse me if this is an ignorant question, but where is this "sales link" to which you refer? I don't see any sales link at all, nothing to click on, etc.

In general: Though I am a newbie and much of the technical discussion is beyond my current level of understanding, occasionally I read some of the more technical threads anyway to try to learn more. It's impossible not to notice the animosity toward Rock Diamond by some vocal members, and it's very off-putting. Obviously since I'm new here I don't understand a lot of the "history" but I do understand that people can have varying opinions and even if one doesn't agree with an opinion, it's still possible to be civil in a reply and not make it into a personal attack. I realize this is not the main issue or purpose of this thread but it does impact the overall tenor of those threads and it has been enough to prompt me to stop reading.

As to the purpose of this thread, I really like reading the trade members' responses to questions. In reading, I can often sense their restraint (and often, they come right out and say they can't say anything because of the PS rules), and it's frustrating knowing that they know more, and could share more, but they are constrained. I especially like reading responses from John, Neil, and some others, who never fail to be polite and informative and to me, exemplify the type of trade members who are invaluable to PS.

 

[kenny]

Sales link is in the sig line.

 

[clgwli]

Sales link is in the sig line.

Why is he not allowed but I see links to other vendors and members of the trade?

ETA: I counted 4 trade members so far on this page of the thread, and on this page ALL FOUR have links to what they do

 

[clgwli]

I just clicked on the show trade person's posts only and I looked at this thread. I am not about to count the whole number of trade persons posting on this thread since I might make an error, but here is what I found.

JimA. did not list any company of affiliation but they are marked as a trade person
MarkBroumand did not list a link, however in the signature there what I assume, is the name of the poster (Mariana) and the company Mark Broumand. Easy to highlight that name and find the company in google.
Allison D did not have anything listed

So out of all the vendors (and there are quite a few) on this thread there are only 2 with nothing noted. One w/o a direct link but a name of the company and a slew of others who have at least one link in their signature (a few have 2 or 3).

So what's your beef with RD? Why not get onto GarryH, DiamondExplorer, digitaldevo, Karl, and all who posted on this thread.

For the record I only listed the trade people listed on the final page of this thread up to my last post who are marked as members of the trade. So it isn't personal, it's just what I see

ETA: Personally I would rather it be required to have it listed where they work so that I can see what qualifications they might have. In a way it helps me give a trade person credit and validation as a trade member.

 

[blueiris]

Sales link is in the sig line.

Thanks. Evidently, my account preference for signatures was turned off and I didn't realize it.

 

[blueiris]

I wanted to mention something a little unrelated to the last few posts: PICTURES.. specifically vendor pictures.

I find it horrible that logos have to be taken off of vendor pictures now. I really don't think it's right. When the announcement was first made I was afraid to say anything about it because it seemed so many people were just "ok" with it. My view is that these diamonds and pictures are not just ordinary pictures. They are specific pictures of a diamond that was purchased. Maybe people get "glamour shots" of their diamonds and proudly like to show them here. In a perfect world, no one would be stealing pictures off of the internet for business use or to deceive another buyer (as in, saving images here and using them on eBay or another diamond site to say this is what the diamond looks like- when it really isn't). The vendors that put time and creative input into their photography of their diamonds deserve to have the logos on them! I don't find it biased or unfair if pictures are posted on the site via the consumer. I honestly don't see how that is even an issue! It is not these vendors faults if they are doing a lot of business and thus their logo is in a lot of pictures. Anyways, from a consumer and an artist, this issue bothers me extremely. No one should have to exclude or cover up logos to make it an even playing field.

The other point is that when people save images from PS a lot of times they can't remember who made the ring or item and it would be beneficial to have the logos on the pictures. Not to mention less threads of "I saved this picture and I can't remember who made it..."

What about a watermark feature? When images are uploaded you can put in the vendor and it will be watermarked so if someone saves it, they can't just steal the picture? I don't know the answer but I'm guessing if a consumer has this big of an issue with the pictures not having logos that some vendors are not happy with this either.

I too find it strange that logos can't be on vendor photographs. Again, being new here, I am not aware of the reason the change was made, but as Bean says, it's not biased or unfair if pictures are posted on the site via the consumer. I also agree that no one should have to cover up logos to make it an even playing field (if that is the reason the change to "no logos" was made).

 

[Rockdiamond]

Speaking of-I saw a quote today. it went something like this-"ignorance is often not a vacuum waiting to be filled, but rather a wall carefully maintained"

Love the quote!

Me too.

Neil you mentioned a concerted effort whereby many experts decidede to ignore RD's incitful (not insightful) posts - the idea being so he did not get the self promotion he seems to seek.
I did that until in the recent crushed ice thread.
I sought to show how ASET could be useful for selecting diamonds with the best crushed ice appearance. Now RD sought at every twist and turn to po-hoo my genuine and effort-filled posts. I was not arguing. (I hope it helped a lot of enthusiast consumers too?).
Now either RD is really very very thick (which I totally doubt) or he had to keep his obscuration alive and hold his "trust only my eyes" line. I have no doubt that by now he has learned to use ASET to select different attributes in fancy shapes - he may even secretly practice it.
Would I repeat that time investment again? Probably not because it is very very frustrating. And it was probably only worthwhile becuase it helped several people following the discussion. It also helped me learn and test concepts.

The point that I am making is this type of debate and discussion IS the peer review process. It is probably the only version of it alive and well on Pricescope at present; sadly driven by xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx edited out.

Imagine how it would be if we did have really smart new people joining in these debates all the time. Imagine if we did not have the likes of the very bright consumers who get frustrated with RD (and other vendors and experts before him).

So I say let RD whine, let people attack him. Sorry for newbies that the place appears a bit untidy. And lets invite as many people with as divergent views as possible to participate. Share their alternate views and defend them. And not just trade people - minerologists, physiscsts and all professions as well as consumers who just want to know what to buy.

Garry- thank you for retracting the reprehensible statement you made- no one should be attacked for their views.
Although you seem to be critical of it, I'd suggest that the "is crushed ice bad?" thread was extrmely educational for everyone who participated- you included. To say nothing of those who read it. I think that is PS at it's best
I have a strong feeling you don't like radiant cuts ( for example) and it was clear in that thread that a methodolgy for interpreting aset for crushed ice is not in place.

I have to throw this out there- Garry I belive your involvment with reflectors- from a developmental, and business standpoint, colors your opinion. John touched on this before- no one likes to have their point of view questioned. Same for the HCA- you've put a lot of work into HCA and reflectors, so questioning them is bound to ruffle your feathers.
But if a more open dialog is going to occur, these sorts of questions need to be allowed- and even welcomed.

Kenny's ranting and attacks are bad- but his justification is truly disguisting.
Karl's behavior should not be tolerated- especially as he's posting under the guise of a trade member.

If you want more trade participation, these personal attacks on people who's views are different need to stop. Dicussion of HCA, ASET IS and other types of cuts besides "super ideal" need to happen as I've shown.
I have not been experimenting secretly- I've been discussing aset openly.
Garry- I invite you to a friendly open exchange of ideas- be it on aset, HCA- anything.
I have learned a tremendous amount from discussions here- sometimes when people are critical of me, or my methods, I learn the most.
You love diamonds, I love them -as do so many others.
Make it fun and safe, and more people will participate, both trade and consumers.

 

[Karl_K]

So what's your beef with RD? Why not get onto GarryH, DiamondExplorer, digitaldevo, Karl, and all who posted on this thread.

Trade members who disrespect consumers have no place here.
This is first and foremost a consumer forum.
That is why vendors are restrained in what they can do.
I don't know digitaldevo but the rest of who you posted have a lot of respect for consumers other than RD.

 

[Rockdiamond]

how about alleged trade members not respecting other trade members?
Where are the consumers I have disrespected Karl?