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Update... possiblity of NC looming again

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Date: 11/9/2006 10:52:46 AM
Author: Becky P

Date: 11/9/2006 10:17:46 AM
Author: Butterflies
Great! What happened? Did you ask him to make time for you or did he just decide that on his own? Either way, it is a good sign.
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He decided to come on his own. He said that he wants to figure everything out and he asked me to come over Friday so we can talk, he''ll cook dinner, and then we''re gonna have a Lost marathon - we''ve been saving them up on TIVO and haven''t seen any of this season yet.
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Too little. Too late. Again, brutally harsh - it sounds like he is throwing you a bone. And, knows exactly how to extract the outcome HE wants. Also, it''s a pattern at this point. You have always moved in the past. Why not now with a little coxing?

Even though NC is about the best place to live, I wouldn''t move without the guarantee of your life moving forward together. It''s what you want. I don''t blame you.

You say you are perfect for each other. If you are truly his ying to your yang, then he would have worked it through by now. It''s painful for men - BUT - they DO do it - commit to marriage.

Good luck.

Often in the LIW, I am reminded of a funny - yet poignant - scene in "When Harry Met Sally." Carrie Fisher''s character is dating a married man. She talks about him leaving his wife and them moving on together. The girls scream at her "He''s NEVER going to leave his wife." Her reaction is somewhat what I see here (the collective "here"). She says "I know. I know" and then proceeds to bascially move forward with her thoughts about them being together.

My point - you ladies deserve to be cherished. As painful as it may be for men, they will find a way to insure they will be together with the one they love if it takes marriage to do that. Their fears, doubts, reservations, timing, etc will find not supercede making a women their wife.
 
Too little. Too late. Again, brutally harsh - it sounds like he is throwing you a bone. And, knows exactly how to extract the outcome HE wants. Also, it''s a pattern at this point. You have always moved in the past. Why not now with a little coxing?


Even though NC is about the best place to live, I wouldn''t move without the guarantee of your life moving forward together. It''s what you want. I don''t blame you.


You say you are perfect for each other. If you are truly his ying to your yang, then he would have worked it through by now. It''s painful for men - BUT - they DO do it - commit to marriage.


Good luck.


Often in the LIW, I am reminded of a funny - yet poignant - scene in ''When Harry Met Sally.'' Carrie Fisher''s character is dating a married man. She talks about him leaving his wife and them moving on together. The girls scream at her ''He''s NEVER going to leave his wife.'' Her reaction is somewhat what I see here (the collective ''here''). She says ''I know. I know'' and then proceeds to bascially move forward with her thoughts about them being together.


My point - you ladies deserve to be cherished. As painful as it may be for men, they will find a way to insure they will be together with the one they love if it takes marriage to do that. Their fears, doubts, reservations, timing, etc will find not supercede making a women their wife. [/quote]

Amen.. well said
 
Will someone please explain to my why women buy into the whole, "he says he wants to marry me but isn't ready to be engaged!" BS? An engagement ring doesn't mean MARRIAGE NOW. It means (as last I checked), "I intend to marry you." If he wants to marry you, then a ring should be no problem, right? My fiance proposed to me last November, and we aren't getting married until next September. We'll have been engaged almost two years before we tie the knot.

I know I'm echoing everyone else, but I have to say it anyway: He's made his point loud and clear, so you must stick to yours. No ring? No move. It's not fair to let him state his wants and needs clearly without budging while you sway back and forth. You're better than that.

Don't be one of those women who clings to a future that only exists in her mind.

<3
 
Just thought I''d throw a little update out there... We had several discussions this weekend about everything: moving, getting engaged, marriage, selling his house, the list goes on and on and on. The weekend started out really rough, both of us on the defensive, arguing back and forth. And, neither of us is the arguing type, so this is really the first legitimate disagreement we''ve ever had (besides how to put dishes in the dishwasher and silly stuff like that). With all the tension in the air, nothing was getting accomplished, and I really thought Saturday morning that we were breaking up. I called several married friends, and every single one said, "Chill out. Give him some space. You''ve only been really talking seriously with him about all this for less than 2 months now. Just go out today, watch football, have some fun, and let him remember how great the relationship is." I was like, what? and ignore the elephant in the room!!! They all three said, YES. Ignore it, give him some time and space. And, I gotta tell you we had so much fun yesterday watching the football games together, then had some great sex (hasn''t been very good with all the tension and pressure of the last few months), and this morning we just spent about 2 hours really discussing everything. There''s still a lot to figure out, but by chilling out and backing off a little, we were able to have an open, honest discussion about a lot of things that we''ve just been fighting about. I know everyone has assumptions about my relationship and that I''m whipped and all that, but I know this man. He loves me, he intends to marry me, and he honestly does just need a little time. We have decided to go visit NC and first of all see if it''s somewhere we''d actually like to live and throughout the coming weeks we''ll be figuring out all the rest of the little details. Honestly, I do not think that we''ll be engaged before we move there. But, by setting it as an ultimatum - marry me or I won''t move -- it will elicit the exact opposite response than what I want. As far as the living arrangement, we haven''t gotten that far, and it''ll be something that gets figured out in the next few weeks. I keep going back and forth. I''d like to live together because it seems silly to go down there and get separate places, but, after all the discussions on here about women who have moved in with their man before a proposal, I''m somewhat hesitant. But, we''ll come to a conclusion that makes sense for the two of us. But, there''s plenty of time to figure it all out. Sounds like if we did move to NC, it would be around Feb. 1 - depending on what happens with selling his place here in Pittsburgh. So, that''s where things stand. I''m sure some people here won''t be happy with my answers, but I''ve got to do what''s right for me and my relationship. Like someone said, if I make the choice to move down there and then we still don''t get engaged, I only have myself to blame. But, on the other side of the coin, if I issue an ultimatum and ruin a great relationship with a wonderful (99% of the time) man, then I''d only have myself to blame as well. So, flame on if you want, but I''m feeling great peace about everything right now.
 
I think it''s great that you''re doing what''s best for you, just make sure that it really is what YOU want to do.

I was adament that I didn''t want to live together before getting engaged. I''d done it once before and while it wasn''t the cause of the eventual break up, it made everything that much more complicated. I was clear about it from the beginning of my relationship with FI. We were long distance (Pittsburgh to Youngstown, OH) and one of us was going to need to move, but I wanted to be engaged before we took that step. One of us dropping everything just seemed too huge to do w/o being engaged.

Throw in some extenuating circumstances (my job was making me miserable, had an airplane scare where I thought we were going to crash, FI absolutely loving his job...)and it made sense for me to move sooner rather than later, but FI wasn''t ready to propose yet. He had this idea in his head of proposing being this huge mature life step (which it is), but he just didn''t feel mature enough to do it. It took a while of me showing him how mature he is (he pays all his bills on time and had been on his own for a while) for him to see that even though he didn''t feel like he matched up to the image in his head of how he should be, he was already there.

I quit my job with no job prospects in sight, packed up everything and moved to another state to move in with him. I''ll be paying rent on my old place through January since I couldn''t sublet it, but I would do everything the same way again. Less than 2 months later we were engaged. Part of it had to do with him seeing that living together didn''t bring out all this crazy bad stuff that he thought it would (stupid married coworkers telling tall tales
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), but rather that it brought us closer.

So, even though lots of people will tell you that if you move in together he''ll be less inclined to ask, sometimes that''s exactly what people need to get over their fears of how different everything will be with marriage.
 
Good luck! I really hope this works out the way you hope it will.
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Oh and kudos for having a real discussion with him about all this.
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Hi Becky,

I''m glad you feel at peace with this decision.

My first reaction was going to be to breakdown some of the things your said...but really, what good will that do?...you will do what you feel/think it''s right for you and us telling you that this is a mistake won''t make you want to do it any less. Nobody learns from someone else''s mistakes or experiences.

Good luck and I do wish you the best!

M~
 
my feeling is the same as mandarine. i could break down your post and say a few things that caught my attention but it doesn''t really matter. you said you are at peace so that''s great. would i do the same in your situation? probably not. i don''t think i would uproot myself again to move with a man who has not proposed to me, regardless of what great intentions he has. i think i respect myself and my own life apart from him too much for that. so anyway, yes i hope it works out the way you want it too. good luck.
 
I agree ladies...Becky, I hope you get what you want this time. Best of luck. =)
 
Date: 11/12/2006 11:42:13 AM
Author: Becky P
So, flame on if you want, but I'm feeling great peace about everything right now.
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Can't help but think you are at peace with it because it is comfortable, what you have always done in the past and most of all what HE wants you to do. Just keep in mind it could be a pattern for the rest of your life - his terms. Some women are fine with that. Other's are not.

Best of luck to you. I grew up in Raleigh, NC - 'cept the traffic & lack of growth planning - it's a great place to be. Close to the mountains, close to the beach, moderate climate, very green & lots to do.
 
You are right...in the end, it''s your life and you have to do what is right for you. Personally I was hoping you''d hold your ground, but what do I really know about your relationship.

But one day of chilling out, watching football and great sex and your resolve has gone out the door. No wonder he doesn''t budge.
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Good luck!
 
Becky, if giving him an ultimatum would ruin the relationship, it wasn't that great a relationship to begin with, IMHO.

And be aware of the huge message you are sending him, that your word means nothing. You repeatedly told him you wouldn't go with him without being engaged, and now you're going to do just that.

Is that the message you want to send? Will he respect you for this?


Just some food for thought...
 
I have to agree with the other ladies. I hope that you are at ease with your decision 100%. Personally I really dont think that he''s ever going to change unless he loses you and sees what life is like without you. At the moment he seems to be getting everything he wants without having to do any of the budging. I know you love him and that you want to be with him but I really think you''re making a huge mistake moving to NC with him. I hope that things go well and that in a couple of months there''s an Im engaged thread but from reading your previous posts and the fact that you seem to be dropping everything to move with this man again without everything which you primarily told him that you wouldnt move without (ie a proposal), I cant see that happening. He has no motivation to propose as he gets everything he wants and all he has to do is say that in the future he wants to marry you
 
Becky, I wrote a long response but then erased it... because the ladies on this board are right.

You are giving up so much to move to NC. And I don't mean that in terms of material possessions or career prospects. You are sacrificing your values and needs. In essence, you are saying that you do not matter in this equation. People who do that send subconscious messages to themselves that they are not "worthy." It is easy to get sucked into a cycle of devaluing your sense of self and personal power. And you also send that message to him as well.

It is not good for a relationship or sustainable. Sooner or later, something gives. Usually the woman wakes up finally and realizes how much time has been wasted or how much of her life she has given up... and her heart is already held prisoner.

It does a man good for his woman to stand up and assert her needs. It makes him a BETTER husband. He respects her and consults with her on important matters. He knows that she is his equal and values her in the way she deserves. You are not doing your relationship any favors by conceding in this very important time in your life.

Our wonderful Becky! You have so much to offer! You are such a compassionate, loving person! You love this man so much! All you want is happiness. You have a right to happiness, just like any other human being. I guess we all have to find our own way. I do hope and pray that your decision leads you to a lifelong commitment. If it does, we would be the first to congratulate you and admit we were wrong!

So I guess what I'm writing is... if you must do this, then do please go live WELL and with self-respect and love. Please DO prove us wrong if you must move without a commitment!!!!!! Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Becky, I wish you continued peace with your decision.

It seemed as though you were initially looking for validation of your needs. You got that in spades! We thought your need was to create marriage momentum within a "reasonable time." The universal advice here was to hold your ground if that''s what you wanted.

Now, (just my opinion here), I see your actual need is to hold on to this relationship. It''s more important to you than the future and all the vagaries that go with that. So if you need validation for that, then I say go ahead and do it how he wants it. Because I think you''re right, an ultimatum would kill the whole thing off. It doesn''t sound like he''s going to want to pursue things unless you continue to be as you''ve always been and do the things you''ve always done. Right now you are pretty clear that you need to be in this relationship. You are young, there is time.
 
Becky, please please make sure that not only this is what you want, but that it is what is best for you.

You know, your situation reminds me of that of my brother (23 yesterday, graduating in December 2008 then leaving for Navy training until April 2010), who is willing to have a child with his girlfriend of two years (24 last October, graduating in April 2007) within the next 3 years just because she ABSOLUTELY wants a child before her 27th birthday... even though he knows it''s completely unreasonable to have this child before he''s done with school and Navy training. It''s certainly not what''s best for him and it may even not be what he wants, but he''d do it because he doesn''t want to lose his girlfriend. He''s a smart, handsome, nice and successful young man who could easily find a woman who''s willing to compromise and do what is best for both (ie. wait until he''s done with school and training before having a child, even though she''d be 29 by then), but he''s settling for a woman who only seems to care about what she wants.

Just a little food for thought.
 
Becky, I'm not too sure what there is to be at peace about, really nothing has changed except you gave in in exchange for short term happiness (good sex?!). Long term, there is absolutely nothing determined, which means you are in the same spot, but have lost a lot of credibility (he has now learned he only has to wait it out, say a few things and you'll go right back to "normal"). I am willing to guarantee these issues will arise again and you will regret your decision to just go with the flow, and most likely by then you will be older and in another state even more dependent on him, but really with no defined role except as a very easy going girlfriend. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic, but there's no way I can spin it. Of course I wish you luck and hope somehow everyone else is wrong.
 
Well, it''s Sunday, I''m suffering from a slight hangover so I thought I''d catch up on PS and actually read a bit more on the history you''ve posted here. I am not too good at following these LIW angst threads sometimes.

Here''s your post from just a month ago:

Promises are a HUGE deal to him. He''s probably made 3 or 4 total promises to me the entire time we''ve known each other, so when he says, "I promise...." it''s a really big deal, and he means it and follows through on it. Last night, he made two promises! First, he promised that if we were looking at moving to another city, we''d talk about moving the timeline up for getting engaged/being married because he does understand that I can''t move without being his wife or fiance. Second, I again asked what type of a timeline he was looking at, and he of course hemmed, hawwed, etc. Then, I point blank asked, do you think we''ll be married before I turn 30? He said, how old are you again? (He does know how old I am, but under the stress of the moment, he forgot.) I said 27, I''m 28 in April. Without hesitation, he said, yes, definitely, I promise we will definitely be married before you''re 30. So, that''s 2 1/2 years away... He and I will definitely be married sometime in the next 2 1/2 years. That''s a little longer than I had hoped for, but if that''s the timeframe he needs, then I''m willing to work with that.



Looks like he''s on the verge of breaking that first promise.

And that peace you are feeling? Just from your posts here, I can pretty much guarantee you that that peace will not last long.

I don''t want to sound too pessimistic, because from what I read (even though it was pretty maddening), I can see that you are a lovely person. But you have already moved once for him!

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Don't confuse inner peace with a lack of conflict. The uncertainty, the stress, the unknown . . . that was all taking its toll on you. But it was serving a purpose in your life . . . helping you choose which of two paths to walk down. Sitting on your butt choosing neither is what you're doing. You can't make him walk down the marriage path, and you're too afraid to walk down the other path alone.



if I issue an ultimatum and ruin a great relationship with a wonderful (99% of the time) man, then I'd only have myself to blame as well.
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If he breaks up with you rather than get engaged, then you know . . . he doesn't love you, not really. I'm sorry, but there it is. So I say you take your life into your own hands and you just let it happen as it happens, whatever that means. If it's not going to work out, nothing you can do will change that, so let's face the music. We'll be here for you.

Your life is happening now, right this second, and if he won't marry you, won't even get engaged and plan a wedding two years off, then it's not going to happen (and here's the kicker) unless you let him go. Then it might. But as long as you continue to base the relationship on what he wants and needs and not on what you want and need, then you might as well just settle down and buy your own place in NC, because honey, I'm 99% sure you'll be living on your own there until he has a reason to end it with you.

You shouldn't have to convince a man to marry you! You shouldn't have to create momentum for him! You shouldn't have to settle! You say you'll only have yourself to blame . . . well, the converse is that you only have yourself to rescue you from this situation. I don't blame him a bit. He doesn't sound like a bad guy, just uninterested in marriage, ambivalent about what his family expects of him, happy to have a girlfriend with her own place who gives him great sex and then goes home and gives him space.

Remember in The Wedding Singer when somebody congratulates Glen Gulia on getting engaged, and he says something like, "Yeah, well I didn't want to break up." I think that's where you are in his mind.

I'm sorry to be so judgmental, but I just feel frustrated. I want what's best for you, but you need to want what's best for you for that to happen. If you aren't willing to lose him to find yourself, then just admit it and don't even pretend you're going to "see" if you'll like NC, don't pretend that you might live together or might not . . . don't waste your friends' time asking their advice if all you're going to do is cave when you sense you might have pushed him too far. Just admit that the fear of being without him trumps everything else . . . your desire to get married, your preferences as to where you'll live, your hope for a family.
 
Date: 11/12/2006 2:20:41 PM
Author: TravelingGal

But one day of chilling out, watching football and great sex and your resolve has gone out the door. No wonder he doesn't budge.
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That sure is what it sounds like. Why should he give up his wants and needs when you so easily give up yours? No work for him.
 
(phoenixgirl''s words): "Don''t confuse inner peace with a lack of conflict. The uncertainty, the stress, the unknown . . . that was all taking its toll on you. But it was serving a purpose in your life . . . helping you choose which of two paths to walk down. Sitting on your butt choosing neither is what you''re doing. You can''t make him walk down the marriage path, and you''re too afraid to walk down the other path alone. "

phoenixgirl...those first few sentences you just wrote...wow. I wish I could have come straight to the point like you did and express my feelings so eloquently and succintly. For me that pretty much sums up BeckyP''s situation.

BeckyP: I am absolutely no good at giving advice so I won''t do that. Though after reading the posts here, I really hope you take some time to really sit back and look at the real state of your relationship. It seems most of the ladies here are offering advice to prevent you from falling for the old okey-doke. Please take some time to really consider what they have to say...
 
In addition to communication, all relationships require compromise on both parts. That way, the two of you can meet somewhere in the middle and be truly content with the final decision you made together. So, we all see what you are compromising... but what is he compromising? From your posts it sounds like you are doing all the actual work and he is just talking his way out of everything. One comfortable weekend does not solve a problem, it just puts it in the back of your mind until it gets a chance to resurface later. You already know how hard it is to move once, why are you willing to do it again with no positive answer in sight? Not to mention that you deserve someone you don''t have to coerce into marriage. You are such a loving person, so do what is going to be best for you now as well as later. I hope that you take the advice from the other ladies, but mostly I just hope that you are completely happy with whatever decision you make.

*M*
 
Becky, it sounds to me like you''ve got a bad case of GGS.

"Good Girl Syndrome".

In my experience GGS affects well-mannered, highly educated, doting, maternal, caring, sweet-spirited people who have not yet realized that EVERYONE ELSE isn''t out for the "greater good" .. that MOST PEOPLE are only "out for themselves."

People with GGS really believe that others will one day realize how much THEY''ve been sacrificing - and that all their good deeds will return to them in spades ... out of pure love & gratitude & respect. That "being selfless" & "sucking it up" & not "rocking the boat" are the keys to getting what they themselves want .. EVENTUALLY! If they are very, very, very GOOD.

Some ladies go on like this FOR YEARS. Putting everyone else first. Until they start breaking down. Lose hope. Lose energy. Start realizing that EVENTUALLY is never coming. People actually TAKE THEM FOREGRANTED. Just EXPECT them to sacrifice etc ... stop APPRECIATING their efforts & WORST OF ALL - stop RESPECTING them. I''ve seen a lot of MOMS like this too - who lose the respect of their kids ... because they allow themselves to be treated like doormats.

People with GGS are ASTONISHED that aggressive, "selfish" gals actually GET WHAT THEY WANT! Command RESPECT! Drive their own HAPPINESS.

I know a little about GGS because

a) I''m Southern
b) I''ve been there
c) Years of therapy
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And I come from a long line of fellow GGS sufferers. My mom once told me she admired my great-grandmother so much because she never actually ASKED for what she wanted. She developed manipulative ways into charming other people into giving her what she wanted WITHOUT asking. Say WHA??? What''s so wrong with ASKING?? Personally - these days - I have MUCH more admiration for the folks who do more ASKING, more NEGOTIATING, more STANDING UP for their own needs ... less "be charming - wait for the pot of gold."
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If this doesn''t apply to you - feel free to disregard!
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i would go and ask his mom point blank about their plans for him and any arrangements being made. i think his mom would be honest with you.
 
This thread and your story makes me feel so terrible. You get hopeful and feel confident, thinking logically, standing up for yourself... but he wins at EVERY discussion. Every time you say "oh I''d never..." you come back here and say "actually after talking to him, I understand that he needs ABC so I think I''d actually like to XYZ even though..." Becky, it''s heart breaking. I''m just going to have to stop reading! People will always do what they have always done.
 
Date: 11/12/2006 11:26:04 PM
Author: *Lindsey*
This thread and your story makes me feel so terrible. You get hopeful and feel confident, thinking logically, standing up for yourself... but he wins at EVERY discussion. Every time you say ''oh I''d never...'' you come back here and say ''actually after talking to him, I understand that he needs ABC so I think I''d actually like to XYZ even though...'' Becky, it''s heart breaking. I''m just going to have to stop reading! People will always do what they have always done.
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Amen. I can''t take it anymore. We are the ladies in Harry Met Sally, screaming at Becky to wake up, but she''s not listening.
 
Date: 11/12/2006 11:26:04 PM
Author: *Lindsey*
This thread and your story makes me feel so terrible. You get hopeful and feel confident, thinking logically, standing up for yourself... but he wins at EVERY discussion. Every time you say 'oh I'd never...' you come back here and say 'actually after talking to him, I understand that he needs ABC so I think I'd actually like to XYZ even though...' Becky, it's heart breaking. I'm just going to have to stop reading! People will always do what they have always done.
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Oh my... I have to agree with Lindsey. Becky, you seem like such an intelligent, thoughtful woman and I am SURE you are in love with a genuinely great man who loves you too... but the problem is, love isn't always enough. I've read the books and heard the songs and seen the movies and wanted to believe that it was... but when it comes to something like marriage, bottomline: respect is just as important... maybe more so. And your boyfriend's entire attitude just SCREAMS disrespect. He loves you, but not enough to sacrifice his own comfort and truly examine his beliefs and step outside of his own perspective. Despite the fact you've been doing that for him in EVERY way!

I don't want to make assumptions, but suffice it to say unfortunately there are a lot of cultures out there (family, religious, or otherwise) that raise guys to believe that women are important, but mens' needs come first. No matter what. And if that belief is deep-seated enough, it doesn't matter how much he loves his girlfriend... he's not going to truly respect her needs and wants and wishes unless they match his own. I don't know if that's the case with your boyfriend, but from what you've posted, it sounds dangerously possible...
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If you read the old marrieds thread in Hangout, about what people have learned in marriage, almost every woman is saying that they needed to chill, stop nagging, and take care of their man who will then take care of them. One thing stuck out for me: it's better to be happy than right.

I hope things turn out well for you!

And about living with, I think you should get your own place. While many opinions on if it is good for relating or not, I don't think it means that he values you less because he wants to have separate places. It is just a family thing.
 
the bottom line is she''s moving as his "mistress". if she''s ok with this, then let her be.
he will never propose.

he doesn''t love you enough to marry you.

a marriage avoidant muslim traveling salesman. yikes.

"you''re right, you''re right, i know your''re right."
 
Date: 11/6/2006 2:41:55 PM
Author:Becky P


So, the kicker is that I finally got him to tell me what he thought it would be like in NC, and he said that we would get 2 different places!! I mean, come on! How much of a whipped dog does he think I am? First, he wants me to move to NC without a proposal AND he wants me to get my own place! I mean, that''s just ridiculous in my mind. He said that he doesn''t want us to live together because his parents would totally not approve. He said it''s a cultural thing and I just need to be respectful of that. So, I asked, if we were engaged, what do you think your parents would say, and he said he didn''t know. So, he hasn''t even discussed the move or anything with his parents yet, who would normally be the first people he talked to about it, so it''s a good sign that he''s talking to me first... So, I told him that maybe he should talk to his parents and see what they would think about the whole thing and that''s where we left it. But, I am STEAMING mad. I mean, how could he even think that I would consider moving (for the second time!) with no engagement and we''d both be getting our own places!!!
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"HE SAID IT''S A CULTURAL THING AND I JUST NEED TO BE RESPECTFUL OF THAT."

Warning, warning! Take off the rose colored glasses and learn all you can about Islam and the woman''s role.
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