Would you forgive your SO cheating on you.

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/17/2007 1:36:13 PM
Author: Mara

Date: 1/17/2007 11:30:17 AM
Author: aljdewey
I find it really curious that some are pointing to the 'for better or worse' piece, because that commitment is made as part of one's vows......yanno, the same vows that said you'd be faithful, too (or forsake all others)?

How can you weight more importance to the 'better or worse' if you aren't going to weight equal importance to the vow of faithfulness?

These elements aren't stand-alones....they are a set.

I take you to be my wife (or husband)....
In sickness and in health,
For richer and for poorer,
For better or worse,
Forsaking all others,
For as long as we both shall live.

Marriage is a union, and the vows are the contract that govern that union. Breaching any one of them can cause a termination of the 'contract'.

As I said on another page, I don't even remember if we said the forsaking all others...I piecemealed our vows from a bunch of different vows. You can make any element a standalone when it's YOUR marriage vows. There are no rules.

I also don't really view marriage like a 'contract' where I can 'terminate' it that easily.

Where I weight my importance is on the fact that we took vows...For better or worse. WHATEVER that really entails as being of 'importance' to us. If we both believe and want it....many times you can make it happen. If only one person wants it, well then yeah not really worth fighting for obviously.

I think different people 'weight' their vows differently as well...aka what is a deal breaker to one person or the other is just so personal right?

Absolutely agree.....just as different personalities value different things.

As reference and clarification on the things I added above......I know that some folks choose language for their ceremonies that don't implicitly include references to faithfulness. That said, it's fair to also note that an overwhelming majority of ceremonies still do (especially those done within the context of a religious covenant), so the point made above is still a cogent one for a good majority of folks.

Neither do I view a marriage as a contract......but that's what it is legally. Most of us don't focus on the legal aspects of it, but it is nonetheless a piece of it as well.

I understand from your comments that your personal viewpoint of "for better or worse" may include adultery, and it's fabulous that that works for you. For me, I see things differently; I feel that if adultery were intended to be included as part of the "better or worse", there wouldn't be need to make special separate mention of it.

Just as one size doesn't fit all, one interpretation doesn't fit all. As long as the two people who enter into a marriage agree on the role of faithfulness or lack of in their union, that's really all that matters, right?

 

[Mara]

hehe we didn't even really talk about it...because again i think it's easy to say things like 'oh just so you know i'd leave you' then be like 'oh hmm maybe not' if it happens or similar. honestly for me i don't think greg and i are on the same page about our thoughts on it which i already mentioned previously, i think i might be more forgiving than he would...but that's cool. i don't need for us to agree on what might happen with something like this....because only time would atually tell, and obviously hopefully we never need to REALLY address it!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 1/16/2007 10:35:42 PM
Author: aljdewey

Cheating isn''t often something that just ''happens'' - spur of the moment, find yourself SUDDENLY in a situation where you don''t think for a minute. Nope, that''s not usually it......

Like most destinations, there are some signs and markers along the roadway. There is smoke long before there is fire.

If you don''t want fire, then don''t collect firewood. Don''t collect brush. Don''t stack the pile. Don''t strike the match.

You cannot do all of those things, then say ''ooops, I didn''t know I would start a fire.....I made a split second mistake and dropped the match.'' If you hadn''t been hanging out among all that dry wood, stacking it into a pile, and playing with matches, it''s unlikely the opportunity for one to ''accidentally'' start would have presented itself.

I think I can agree with this... I think that many times there probably are signs along the way. Where you make a choice to step on the slippery slope... and then neglect to catch yourself or step off, and suddenly... bam! You''re at the opposite end of where you started.

And TG''s postion that cheating is abuse is an interesting one. I''d never thought of it that way. However, people do stay in previously abusive relationships once the abuse has been addressed, and the behaviour modified and eliminated. Trust can be re-built and people can and do change... especially if they have enough incentive too... such as changing or losing the person you love forever. That''s "worse" too... and some people have successfully worked through it.

 

[Hopes]

Date: 1/17/2007 12:01:08 AM
Author: EBree

I see where you're coming from, and you're right. Even though I feel like I know what I'd do, no one can know (100%) what they'd do in the future and I hate to speak about something before I've experienced the situation I'm talking about. So I'll just say, as TG has (and I believe I have, once!) that I'm in the dark grey.

I do agree that no one can know 100% what they'd do in the future. However, I do know what I had done in the past, which was get upset about it for a while, deal with it and continue with the person. Sometimes it works out, and other times it doesn't. If it doesn't ultimately work out, then that's the way it was meant to be. If it does, then the blemish will just be another thing to joke with when you feel like teasing about something that's long past.

I know the expression "fool me twice, shame on me." I just don't agree with it. No matter how many times someone fools you and violates your trust, it's still not your own fault. If we only look at it from a relationship perspective, it's easy to blame the victim. What if you look at it from another perspective, like a parent who violates the trust of a child? A significant other for several years IS as close as family, if not often closer. It's just not fair to say that forgiving is bad or wrong.

At the same time I do know and understand what it's like from both sides. Temptation and lust are strong things, and women aren't immune to it. At least, I know I'm not. After some long and difficult learning experiences, I fully agree it's best to nip it in the bud, before anything ever starts. Don't play with matches, and you won't get burnt.

 

[HOUMedGal]

OK, I''ll bite.

In response to Mara''s question about what our feelings are on this topic and whether we''re dating, engaged, married, kids or not, etc., I''ll start by saying that I''ve been married to my hubby for almost 7 months now. We had been together for just over 3 years when we got married.

I must agree that it''s a shades of grey kind of thing for me. It''s funny, because I remember, as a single girl, thinking that cheating would be a deal-breaker for me...although, I was never cheated on (that I know of) and so I was never actually put to the test to see what I would do.

However now, as a married woman, considering the 3 and a half year history my hubby and I have (and I know that 3.5 years isn''t even that long..but it''s long enough, I think) I really don''t think it would be an absolute deal breaker. I''m also hesitant to say that it WOULDN''T be a deal breaker. It would very much depend on the circumstances, and how I would feel. It''s so hard to predict how I would feel...I do know that when other big things have happened in my life, I''ve often felt differently about them than I would have predicted.

I can picture myself being terribly hurt, and angry, and distrustful of him...but I also picture myself becoming very, very sad at the thought of losing my best friend and partner. To me, what we have is SO huge and SO important that I would have to think very seriously before deciding to throw it all away. Of course, it would be an easy decision if he came home and told me that he''d been having an affair for the past 6 months and he has realized that he loves her more than me....but what if it was something more trivial? Especially if, in discussion, we discovered that the reason he cheated was because there were problems in OUR relationship that could be worked on? I know that I''m human, just like him, and that there''s always the possibility that I''m unknowingly falling short in some area that is very important to his happiness in our relationship. Sometimes you both get busy and don''t realize the little things you are or aren''t doing that could make a world of difference if you just talked about them and made the commitment to work on them. These little things adding up are often what lead people to seek what they need OUTSIDE their marriage.

I just think that my marriage is important enough to me that I couldn''t let it dissolve without some serious examination about what went wrong in the first place, and whether or not it could be fixed.

 

[LittleRock]

My response.....Tell me to my face you want to have/thinking/whatever affair. Don''t do it behind my back. I absolutely have no tolerence for that.

10 years and three kids'' later, he couldn''t afford it......Oh that was so bad!!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/17/2007 2:06:59 PM
Author: decodelighted

I hear ya ... and I think IF & WHEN something like that happens, everyone has a right to deal with it however their experiences & values & situation & opinions *at the time* dictate.

I still think it''s hard to predict what life has in store & how your own "take on stuff" changes *dramatically* over time. And the idea that ideas/perceptions/values even WON''T change over time strikes me as a little *young* because it reveals that the person hasn''t experienced *that* yet.

Date: 1/17/2007 2:06:59 PM
Author: Hopes

Date: 1/17/2007 12:01:08 AM
Author: EBree

Even though I feel like I know what I''d do, no one can know (100%) what they''d do in the future and I hate to speak about something before I''ve experienced the situation I''m talking about.

I do agree that no one can know 100% what they''d do in the future. However, I do know what I had done in the past, which was get upset about it for a while, deal with it and continue with the person.

I''d respectfully suggest these two things:

1) I think it''s absolutely possible for anyone to predict what they think would happen in a given set of circumstances. Predict doesn''t mean what * absolutely will* happen...it means what I *reasonably think* will happen, and any prediction can only be based on the information I have at hand at the time I make the prediction It''s similar in meaning to forecast.....what I reasonably THINK will happen, but subject to change.

If asked to make a prediction on what will happen to two cars at the moment that I see them heading directly for each other, I''d predict they will crash. At that moment that I see them, my prediction is ''they''ll crash''. If I subsequently see one turn out of the path of the other, then I''d likely amend my prediction to "they won''t crash".

2) The ability to predict the outcome of a future accurately *MIGHT* increase for those who have prior experience, but prior experience is no guarantee of accuracy in and of itself.

How you might react to John cheating on you will not necessarily mirror how you''d reacted previously when Tom cheated on you. They are different people and different relationships.

Further, how you might react when John cheats on you the second time may not necessarilly mirror how you reacted the first time he cheated on you. The fact that you were able to stay in the relationship after the first occurrence doesn''t guarantee that you''d be willing to stay after the second.

 

[asscherisme]

No, I could not forgive. It would be a deal breaker for me and the end of the marriage. This year ,we will hit 12 years and we have kids but I would not stay married to a cheater. And I told him that when we were engaged. He feels the same way.

He has a friend who cheated on his wife, got the other woman pregnant and then convinced her to have an abortion. My husband is no longer friends with that man because he just fel if they guy could be so slimey and lying to his wife, this is not someone whose character he wanted as a freind.

I was very proud of my husband for making that decision to not be friends with this guy anymore. I have not liked that guy for years but it was my husband's decision to make to move past the friendship.

edited to add: I hear some say that because they have kids they would forgive. For me, its because I have kids that I would be even more inflexible on this topic. If I went against my principals and staye with a cheater, I'm teaching my kids its OK to tolerate that kind of behavior in a marriage or to cheat in a marriage. I am a STRONG believe in kids learn so much more by watching how their parents behave and what they do, than listening to what they say. If I were to let my husband stay after cheating and find out one of my boys cheated on their wives, or my girls on their husbands or if the accepted a cheating spouse, I would feel it was MY fault for modeling that is OK in a marriage.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

asscherisme, I think there is one thing you have not thought about. As soon as you divorce, the ex-husband gets joint custody of those kids. And your kids will then be required to go for visits with their father without your supervision. So you would have zero control over his potential bad choices and what he''d expose them to. I have a friend who suffered immensely because of the required visits her little girl had to make and both of them were miserable for years. The father did not have the same values as the mother and she was always sick over the time the child had to spend with the father. Not to mention, she just plain missed her child and the child missed her mother.

So as for me, I''d think very carefully how I could hold things together, seek counseling, forgive, and go forward as a family if my husband made one big spur-of-the-moment mistake. A long-term affair where the husband wants to leave is probably not able to be fixed, but I''d sure as heck try so I could maintain control of my kids all the time. You can kick the husband out, but the kids will go with him...at least part of the time.

 

[anchor31]

A few months ago my mother mentioned this... And she said, like the OP, that earlier in the relationship she would''nt have forgiven, but now after 32 years and 3 adult children... She''s not sure it would be a back and white thing anymore.

I have to admit that it perplexed me, and although I''m usually a forgiving person, I''m still having trouble understanding how someone could forgive cheating. I don''t think I could. I have this big thing for keeping your word, keeping your promises and your vows... Call me a control freak, but I get upset when someone says they''ll call me and they don''t. When we will be married, my FI will vow publicly to be faithful to me. If he couldn''t hold on to that vow, I probably wouldn''t think much of him anymore and I would most likely throw him out.

As for the men vs women theories, as a bio major I agree that men and women have biologically and sexually evolved differently. That said, both sexes, however different, were "programmed" to procreate, so this excuse for men cheating more seems pretty ridiculous to me. The human behaviour in the stone age also seems like a poor excuse for actions committed today. Yes, we all have urges and instincts and whatnot, but humans have lived in a society that has morals, ethics and laws we are expected to follow for a very very long time.

Personally, I believe that being attracted by someone else can happen and it isn''t wrong, but the real problem is when one chooses to act on that attraction. I''ve been attracted to someone while with my FI... I admitted it to myself and moved on, simple as that. We talked about cheating (and bachelor/bachelorette party stripper stuff) recently, and our rule is "you can look but you can''t touch". FI surprised me when he showed absolutely no interest with going to a strip club for his bachelor party... he just smirked and said he''d rather go shoot pool with the guys.

 

[Finding_Neverland]

It is easy to say you know what you''d do in the hypothetical. But if you have to live thru it, you may do the opposite.

We know a couple. Long time friends. We got married first while they were still dating. They married almost 2 years later. Over all the years, no matter where we or they have moved, we''ve kept in touch with each other. Chat on the phone regularly. Visit each other as often as possible. Our kids are the same ages.

6-7 years ago, my GF tells me her Hubby was having an affair. A woman he''d met on the Internet. He''d signed up at some on-line personals website. I told her then to divorce him.

But the kids were still at home. Early teens. She did not want to destroy their father in their eyes. She''d always been a SAHM. No job. No benefits. No money of her own. AND, for all the hurt he caused her, she still loved him. She did not want to throw away 20 years she''d invested in their relationship over a 1 time casual fling.

Time goes on and GF learns this was not a one time thing. He''d been having affairs since before they were married. Back when they began dating. By then, their youngest had graduated High School and Hubby didn''t care any more what anyone thought. He wanted my GF to go full fledged with him into the "Swinging" lifestyle. I was incredulous!! She kept saying he was sick. He needed her to help him. He was on a self destructive path that could lead to his death if she didn''t help him to stop.

About a year ago, their youngest came home from college for a weekend visit. On Sunday afternoon, he brought a group of pals over for a Texas Hold ''Em poker party in the family room. Those young men walked in on Dad and his latest fling, naked in the hot tub.

I can''t tell you all the "stuff" GF has done this past year trying to help her Hubby and help save their marriage. Let''s just say, she let him drag her down to his level. Finally, last week, GF had had enough. She walked out on him.

 

[anchor31]

I should also mention that my FFIL cheated on my FMIL about 7 years ago. She hasn''t forgiven or forgotten and won''t throw him out or leave... So there''s definitely a very pleasant atmosphere in that house.

That event has had a big impact on my FI, who was 18 at the time. We both know that cheating is a big dealbreaker, and I don''t believe it could happen. If it did, it would be over. We''ve both seen what it can do to a family...

 

[asscherisme]

DS, thats a good point. I can't imagine staying with a cheater though. I hope I never have to deal with this. I can't imagine my DH cheating but I have learned in life, never say never. My husband and I have had our ups and downs but cheating to me is a deal breaker. Thats awful for your friend. Bad situation all around.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I can''t even articulate what I think about this because I guess I just don''t. I mean, I can think impersonally about how it would be difficult to decide between repairing a fractured trust and starting a new life alone, but I really can''t imagine my husband and I cheating on each other. Based on luck and our shared religious fanaticism as teenagers, DH and I have only been intimate with one another, so in my mind sex = husband. I can''t speak for him, of course, but I imagine that despite all his male hard-wiring he''d have some reservations and hang-ups too.

I also imagine that such a betrayal would be more likely to come at a time when we weren''t meeting each other''s needs and there were other issues in the marriage, so forgiving the infidelity would be just another thing we''d have to overcome and wouldn''t be the deal maker or breaker, but it could be the straw that broke the camel''s back.

I also think the type of infidelity would matter to me . . . was it emotional and premeditated? That would be much worse than physical and spontaneous.

Lastly, I think that the proclamations of how it would be a deal-breaker are part of an attitude that tries to discourage infidelity. We tell our husbands, "Honey, I would so leave your ass if you cheated on me!" but I think less than half of us really would. Surely some of us who have written here have been cheated on, unbeknownst to us, and surely others of us here at PS have gone that hard journey of discovery and decision and forgiveness and, not surprisingly, didn''t feel like posting about it on a forum for the curiosity of strangers.

I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I''m turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can "work at" a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won''t really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other''s families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making "kiss kiss" sounds and saying, "Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . ." in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn''t. I don''t know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to "try" being with another person or something.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 1/17/2007 9:27:40 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
I can''t even articulate what I think about this because I guess I just don''t. I mean, I can think impersonally about how it would be difficult to decide between repairing a fractured trust and starting a new life alone, but I really can''t imagine my husband and I cheating on each other. Based on luck and our shared religious fanaticism as teenagers, DH and I have only been intimate with one another, so in my mind sex = husband. I can''t speak for him, of course, but I imagine that despite all his male hard-wiring he''d have some reservations and hang-ups too.

I also imagine that such a betrayal would be more likely to come at a time when we weren''t meeting each other''s needs and there were other issues in the marriage, so forgiving the infidelity would be just another thing we''d have to overcome and wouldn''t be the deal maker or breaker, but it could be the straw that broke the camel''s back.

I also think the type of infidelity would matter to me . . . was it emotional and premeditated? That would be much worse than physical and spontaneous.

Lastly, I think that the proclamations of how it would be a deal-breaker are part of an attitude that tries to discourage infidelity. We tell our husbands, ''Honey, I would so leave your ass if you cheated on me!'' but I think less than half of us really would. Surely some of us who have written here have been cheated on, unbeknownst to us, and surely others of us here at PS have gone that hard journey of discovery and decision and forgiveness and, not surprisingly, didn''t feel like posting about it on a forum for the curiosity of strangers.

I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I''m turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can ''work at'' a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won''t really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other''s families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making ''kiss kiss'' sounds and saying, ''Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . .'' in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn''t. I don''t know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to ''try'' being with another person or something.

Phoenix,

I just wanted to tell you how touching the last paragraph in your post is. You summed up what a marriage is in my eyes so profoundly that when my husband walked into the room for the third time in as many minutes to share some random, useless information with me that instead of getting annoyed I was able to listen and look at him with love in my eyes. So thank you for that.

~K

P.S. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming!

 

[Mara]

I totally agree Kimberly...PG your last paragraph definitely struck home with me as well and was SO spot on with what I think in general...why it''s shades of gray for me. There''s so much more to it than ''he cheated, now he''s toast'' for me.

 

[HOUMedGal]

Date: 1/17/2007 9:27:40 PM
Author: phoenixgirl

I also imagine that such a betrayal would be more likely to come at a time when we weren''t meeting each other''s needs and there were other issues in the marriage, so forgiving the infidelity would be just another thing we''d have to overcome and wouldn''t be the deal maker or breaker, but it could be the straw that broke the camel''s back.

I also think the type of infidelity would matter to me . . . was it emotional and premeditated? That would be much worse than physical and spontaneous.

Lastly, I think that the proclamations of how it would be a deal-breaker are part of an attitude that tries to discourage infidelity. We tell our husbands, ''Honey, I would so leave your ass if you cheated on me!'' but I think less than half of us really would. Surely some of us who have written here have been cheated on, unbeknownst to us, and surely others of us here at PS have gone that hard journey of discovery and decision and forgiveness and, not surprisingly, didn''t feel like posting about it on a forum for the curiosity of strangers.

I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I''m turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can ''work at'' a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won''t really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other''s families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making ''kiss kiss'' sounds and saying, ''Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . .'' in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn''t. I don''t know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to ''try'' being with another person or something.

Very, very well said! You managed to capture the way that I, too, feel, but in a much more eloquent way than I did. Excellent!!

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/17/2007 9:27:40 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I''m turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can ''work at'' a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won''t really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other''s families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making ''kiss kiss'' sounds and saying, ''Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . .'' in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn''t. I don''t know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to ''try'' being with another person or something.

This is precisely why I would give it all up. If you see yourself as on a journey of 60 years, why would for a moment of passion or whatever - even for an incling - give all that sort of betrayal to your spouse? Why would you inflict that much harm? To me, it makes a mockery of what one has built together.

And, since my husband knows it would be a deal breaker, he knows how it would rock my core he wouldn''t do it.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 1/18/2007 10:35:48 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/17/2007 9:27:40 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I''m turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can ''work at'' a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won''t really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other''s families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making ''kiss kiss'' sounds and saying, ''Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . .'' in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn''t. I don''t know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to ''try'' being with another person or something.

This is precisely why I would give it all up. If you see yourself as on a journey of 60 years, why would for a moment of passion or whatever - even for an incling - give all that sort of betrayal to your spouse? Why would you inflict that much harm? To me, it makes a mockery of what one has built together.

And, since my husband knows it would be a deal breaker, he knows how it would rock my core he wouldn''t do it.

I agree. And if I found out at 60 after being married almost 40 years, and it was a one time thing, I may have a different view. But if I were 27 and it happened? Dunno....

 

[Mara]

Date: 1/18/2007 10:35:48 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/17/2007 9:27:40 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
I met my husband at 18 and married at 24. I'm turning 27 soon. As our relationship grows, I am amazed at how much we have grown and how you really can 'work at' a marriage. My hope is that we have the next 60 years to laugh and cry and live . . . together. I think at the end of that journey, if I am lucky enough to get my 60 years without too many personal tragedies, then I won't really care what happened some night when we were young and stupid. I think life is about what you do day after day -- caring about each other's families and work and friends and interests -- and night after night -- making 'kiss kiss' sounds and saying, 'Honey? Are you ok? Love you . . .' in the middle of the night when you are mostly asleep but aware that the other person isn't. I don't know if I would give all of that up just because one of us made a stupid mistake or wanted to 'try' being with another person or something.

This is precisely why I would give it all up. If you see yourself as on a journey of 60 years, why would for a moment of passion or whatever - even for an incling - give all that sort of betrayal to your spouse? Why would you inflict that much harm? To me, it makes a mockery of what one has built together.

And, since my husband knows it would be a deal breaker, he knows how it would rock my core he wouldn't do it.

People can easily see it another way. I might see it as a mockery of what you have 'built together' to just flat out leave and call it quits after 60 years because something happened. (not to mention that the idea of having crazy sex outside of the marriage after 60 years of marriage (which puts people at what? 85 if they got married at 25?) is kinda not super appealing?! lol!!)...and I'd be really interested to talk to 60 or 80 year olds who have spent their whole lives with their mate. They might be more inclined to forgive than a younger person. Maybe. I can't help but think that most of the older people I know have mellowed out so much, especially about each other, that they just can't get all riled up about stuff that might have seriously shaken them earlier in life. It's like they realize, it's not worth it...the time together is what matters.

 

[fire&ice]

No, you''re missing my point. I''m not saying that 60 years into the marriage one might have an affair

. I''m not saying that 60 years into a marriage that you would leave or get all riled up at something that may have happened when you were 27 something years.

I''m saying that if you see yourself on a journey that will last 60 years - having an affair is an afront, a mockery & betrayal of what you may have. Again, it''s the knowing of how is will effect the marriage - but you do it anyway that is the unforgiveable fact.

 

[Hopes]

Date: 1/18/2007 11:24:13 AM
Author: fire&ice
No, you're missing my point. I'm not saying that 60 years into the marriage one might have an affair

. I'm not saying that 60 years into a marriage that you would leave or get all riled up at something that may have happened when you were 27 something years.

I'm saying that if you see yourself on a journey that will last 60 years - having an affair is an afront, a mockery & betrayal of what you may have. Again, it's the knowing of how is will effect the marriage - but you do it anyway that is the unforgiveable fact.

I have a story about my grandparents (my mother's parents). My grandfather had his 80th birthday not too long ago. He had a long affair with another woman many years ago, the result of which was at least 2 children. He also had 3 kids with my grandmother. Both of them are still alive and married. The other kids that my grandfather had would visit once in a while, and be greeted as family. I don't really know the specifics of all this, but it really seemed to me like after a while, love has nothing more to do with the marriage, but duty, committment and tradition take over. That might explain why divorce rate is going sky-high these days... such things become less and less important particularly at a younger age. People don't realize that when they get older though, such as in their 60's and 70's, companionship and friendship becomes much more important than fleeting attraction, passion or lust.

The other story is about my parents. My father had a long affair with another woman, and my mother knew he was fooling around but took him back anyway. She married my dad, but my grandparents didn't like him and didn't want her to marry him -- ironically enough, they were right. He left her when I was about 3 years old and married the woman that he had been having an affair with for a long time. Obviously he had no intention of staying with her for life, no committment and no respect for the sanctity of marriage (or about his children). He now has a second kid with the other woman, or possibly another woman altogether (I honestly have no idea). On the other hand, my mother had chosen the wrong person to attempt to spend the rest of her life with, and despite marrying late in her 20's she had no idea what marriage really should entail.

In any case, my point is that having an affair in itself does not necessarily end a marriage. It depends on those involved and the amount of companionship, friendship and respect both people in the marriage have for the other person. If these things do not exist, then nothing can hold it together, especially after an affair. These things are also not exclusive to those in a marriage -- many cohabiting couples, same-sex or straight, also feel deeply bonded to their significant others. To take the next step into marriage though, is to say that you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, to grow old with that person, that you accept all of that person's flaws and know that the other person feels the same about you. I think that cheating is a betrayal, but would a separation without cheating and both people "dating in the open" be any better? Not really in my opinion. It's all damaging, but just a question of whether it's damaging enough to permanently break the bond between two people.

 

[perry]

It would depend on the situation, why it occured, and the response of the other person to me. My range of response could be anywhere from "OK no problem" to "its over... Right now."

When "D" and I were discussing marrage we discussed some of these issues. She divorced her previous husband over long term continued infedelity. I have never been married.

Both of us have seen many marrages shattered by the isssue. Both of us have seen or been in sitiatuions where there were close calls.

I have my areas of weakness; and while I work to avoid those - even as a single (as AJ so elequantly pointed out you need to do)... what if you find yourself unexpectedly in one of those situations. You cannot always control the situation arround you - and what others do.

What if you find yourself in a situation that you never even imagined could happen?

What if...?

What if...?

I'm really good at spinning out many what if's?


I am in the group that believes that in reality that currently about the same number of gals cheat as guys. Yes I know of guys that cheat constantly (going from one affair to another). But I also know of many married guys who do try to avoid situations that could be trouble.

I have been approached numerous times by married gals over the years... So far I have had no problem saying no to them without a second thought. I have known a few married gals who cheated constantly going from affair to affair (but none currently).

If you have sufficient income or wealth to support them - multiple wives and concubines are totally acceptable - if not encouraged. There are still countries today where a guy can have multiple wives. I am told that there is at least one country in Africa where gals can have multiple husbands (kinda a group marriage). Other countries place little value (if any) on monogamy.

Anyway; in the end it would depend on the situation, why it occured, and how they responded to me on the issue. Sex is only a small part of marriage in the end; and I see the concept of a lifelong partnership as more important than something as transient as an affair depending on why it occured.

Perry

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/18/2007 8:33:58 PM
Author: perry

Sex is only a small part of marriage in the end;

Absolutely.......but trust is a very big part of marriage.

It''s not about the sex. It''s about the breach of trust. It''s about breaking one''s word; one''s promise (to be faithful).

 

[hlmr]

Date: 1/18/2007 11:04:09 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 1/18/2007 8:33:58 PM
Author: perry

Sex is only a small part of marriage in the end;

Absolutely.......but trust is a very big part of marriage.

It's not about the sex. It's about the breach of trust. It's about breaking one's word; one's promise (to be faithful).

I agree that this is what is very hard to forgive and forget.

 

[diamondfan]

This is something that comes up with friends in conversation a lot for some reason.

I would like to say I could get over it, but knowing myself, even if it happened once and would never again, I would be devasted. I could maybe forgive but it would be a thorn in my side for sure, I know myself. I also think, if it is just sex, why would you risk it all and cause such pain for just sex? And if they carry on some whole affair and are lying to you for years, totally a deal breaker no matter what their excuse...clearly time to move on, in my book.

Like others have said, whether a man views sex as just the act and there is not love or emotion involved, I still think, why jeopardize your marriage to have sex with someone? Marriage takes work as does keeping sex exciting. Unless you really just want out of your marriage, in which case I say leave and then find a new person, I think we have to make conscious and deliberate choices not to cross that line. And though some people can move on after or find that the marriage is stronger after such a thing, I would not be happy to go through it all. Of course, if I got to my 50th anniversary and dh told me once, 40 years earlier, he did something on a business trip, once and never again, I also doubt I would leave but...I would be mad for sure. I know couples where the guy cheats and then out of guilt buys his wife major jewels. She also cheats, and they just live with it because she likes being married to a powerful and wealthy guy, the perks are worth it to her. I think it is nasty but whatever works I guess!

And not that I would ever cheat, but seriously my dh could never deal. He gets upset if an old boyfriend of mine gets mentioned! And we have been together a long time now, so it is funny to a degree but I want to say, get over it, who even cares about him?

 

[Olive Oil]

Date: 1/16/2007 6:52:49 PM
Author: mtrb


Do you believe we are truly monogamists or did it develop for social reasons?



Men and women are hardwired to be men and women at an animal level regardless of the ability to use our mind to think our way out of nature.


So give me an argument why people cheat then.


My opinion on the most basic level is… men cheat for sex, women cheat for love.

mtrb, I don't totally disagree with you here, but I think there is a little bit more to the biology. I'm an evolutionary biologist, so I've got a bit of background on the biology of mating systems. It is true that very few organisms are monogamous. Monogamy tends to evolve when resources or environmental conditions are poor, and both parents are needed to successfully raise young. If resources are not so scarce, then you get a conflict between the sexes. Males have sperm, which can be thought of as energetically cheap. Their reproductive success is limited by the number of times they mate. With females, they are investing much more energy and time into a developing offspring, and their reproductive success is more limited by resources to put in that offspring.

BUT, the interesting thing is that now that we have developed molecular techniques to assess paternity, that many species that were traditionally thought to be monogamous are actually not. They are instead socially monogamous, meaning that they pair up, have one main social partner that they nest with, but when their partner is off getting food, they mate with the neighbors. From an evolutionary/reproductive standpoint, it makes sense that both the male and female are hard-wired to do this. Males benefit by passing on more genes (because he is limited by the number of matings), whereas females benefit by have greater genetic diversity in their offspring (Genetic diversity is a good thing, especially in animals that have higher mortality rates, because if you mate with one male that has bad genes and get a child that is less likely to survive, you still have another child with a different set of genes from another male that may do better). So really, even in socially monogamous species there drive for both sexes to have multiple partners.

I guess the point is that I think humans have a similar evolutionary history as many other species, so they are not exempt from similar biological urges. I think the biology argument that for some people, the urges are there, is a fair one. BUT, I do NOT think having a biological urge is an excuse for acting on the urge (I don't think that you were saying that either). So I guess I'm mostly agreeing with you, except that women don't just cheat for love. Seriously, you should hear my girlfriends talk sometime.

 

[perry]

aljdewey

It''s not about the sex. It''s about the breach of trust. It''s about breaking one''s word; one''s promise (to be faithful).
Agreed; then the next question is what is a breach of trust - and what is cheating?

Now I hope my first example is not considered a breach of trust and cheating by others?

---- Rape where the gal is physically overwhelmed.

How would you consider this one...

---- Sex provided reluctantly under the threat of physical harm.

Or this...

---- Sex provided reluctantly under the threat of a some kind of "negative situation."

It may be less common today - but I''ve known a few gals in the past where keeping their job to support their family depended on sex with the boss (and actually, in some countries today getting a promotion often depends on sex with the boss).

Then there is:

--- Sex that developes in some form of survival situation, where either the gal or guy pairs up with someone to create a supporting team to help survive the situation.

I don''t know about you - but I''d rather my wife (or girlfrend) did whatever she had to do to survive the situation and return as safe and sound as possible. I would hope that you would like to get your husband back as well (and in extreem survival situations the people who paired up are likely to be lifelong freinds as well as they have formed an extreemly deep bond).

I also note that I consider anyone who has entered an active war zone to be in a survival situation (i.e.; I ask for no explainations and will assign no guilt from any military - or supporting civilian person - who is deployed to an active combat situations where their physical and emotional survival as a person is threatened).

--- Do I need to continue with possible examples.

I do not necessarily consider those, and other situations, as breaching the trust as long as they are appropriately communicated at the appropriate time (which may be years later).

It depends on the situation - and how it all fits together. Was there an intentional breach of trust - or did some situation develope that the person have no idea how to handle or could not avoid and sex developed within that situation.

I personally believe that people who set hard standards on what is "acceptable" are actually setting themselves up for a crises in their marrage down the road.

I think the more long term stable situation is when each other knows that they can talk about anything without automatic severe repercusions.

Sometimes the best thing for a relationship is to allow the other person to admit a mistake - or to talk about a situation where they feel they crossed a line.

When absolutes are pre-set (or seem to be pre-set) is when communication breaks down - and one meaningless mistake gets elevated to extreem importance. It is the loss of communication that leads to the real problems in these cases that often cause divorce. Not the actions that people are not willing to communicate on.

I should also point out that not all marriage vows include the concept of monogomy either; and some people purposely exclude it with an understanding that their may be others...


Perry

 

[aquarius_ser]

Forgive: Yes, eventually...
Forget and every be happy again: NO, NEVER

I''ve been through this and nothing is ever the same....

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/19/2007 7:35:16 AM
Author: perry


aljdewey

It's not about the sex. It's about the breach of trust. It's about breaking one's word; one's promise (to be faithful).


Agreed; then the next question is what is a breach of trust - and what is cheating?

Now I hope my first example is not considered a breach of trust and cheating by others?

---- Rape where the gal is physically overwhelmed.

How would you consider this one...

---- Sex provided reluctantly under the threat of physical harm.

Or this...

---- Sex provided reluctantly under the threat of a some kind of 'negative situation.'

Perry, I can't speak for everyone, only for myself.

Your examples indicate that you're still focusing on the actual sex act itself, and many have agreed that's not the primary issue. Being under threat or duress, to me, doesn't represent choice.

The breach of trust comes when one freely chooses (meaning not under threat of injury or death) to act outside of his/her vows.....to choose to break the commitment to be faithful.

I personally believe that people who set hard standards on what is 'acceptable' are actually setting themselves up for a crises in their marrage down the road.

I disagree. I believe that being on the same page and clear on expectations actually makes selecting a partner and maintaining a marriage more successful.

I think the more long term stable situation is when each other knows that they can talk about anything without automatic severe repercusions.

I don't agree. The fact a select few things are your 'non-negotiables' doesn't mean the entire climate of the marriage is non-negotiable. Far from it.

For me, it was 'we can work out anything except these three things....a, b, c.' Those are my non-negotiables. EVERYTHING else is negotiable. I don't think that's unreasonable, especially if both know it up front.

Further, only one of those three instances have the potential to be fatal to the relationship on first instance. I'd be willing to work out the other two, providing they are swiftly corrected.

Sometimes the best thing for a relationship is to allow the other person to admit a mistake - or to talk about a situation where they feel they crossed a line.

Yep - mistakes happen. He can make any OTHER mistake except those three, and only one of those three would be relationship-ending on the first instance.

I should also point out that not all marriage vows include the concept of monogomy either; and some people purposely exclude it with an understanding that their may be others...

Of course, and I don't think anyone has suggested that his or her own position is one that everyone else should adopt.

If neither of the two people in a marriage place importance on monogamy and choose to exclude pledges of monogamy from their vows, that's fabulous. Good for them. Marriage doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.....again, why I think it so important to be as clear and concise about expectations with one's partner before making that commitment.