Fashionvictim
Shiny_Rock
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Would you forgive your SO cheating on you.
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aljdewey
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INCREDIBLY well said, TG.
Cheating isn''t often something that just "happens" - spur of the moment, find yourself SUDDENLY in a situation where you don''t think for a minute. Nope, that''s not usually it......
Like most destinations, there are some signs and markers along the roadway. There is smoke long before there is fire.
If you don''t want fire, then don''t collect firewood. Don''t collect brush. Don''t stack the pile. Don''t strike the match.
You cannot do all of those things, then say "ooops, I didn''t know I would start a fire.....I made a split second mistake and dropped the match." If you hadn''t been hanging out among all that dry wood, stacking it into a pile, and playing with matches, it''s unlikely the opportunity for one to "accidentally" start would have presented itself.
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Officers girl
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So true Alj!! I couldnt agree more!! I grew up in a house with an unfaithful father and I always vowed that no man would ever be allowed to trample on my the way my father did my mother. If my fiancee cheated he knows he might as well come home and start packing because I will never be embarassed and broken that way. Cheating is like breaking a vase you can glue it back but It wont ever be the same vase it was.
poptart
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decodelighted
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Officers girl
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aljdewey
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Would I forgive my husband? In time, yes......I love my husband deeply, and I''m sure that I could eventually find a way to forgive his idiotic behavior if he cheated. I could forgive him for hurting me.
BUT.......I couldn''t stay with him. From the point at which the betrayal was revealed, I think I''d be mad as hell for a while. I think eventually we''d both mourn the loss of the relationship as it had been. But, I''m 99.99999% sure there would be no staying together. Speaking just for me.....I can''t live with someone without trust.
Only one thing would devastate me more than the hurt of being cheated on....being cheated on a SECOND time and knowing that I allowed the opportunity for that to happen by staying after the first time.
Hubby and I spoke about this in no uncertain terms at the beginning. I told him, if you really have to go be with someone else, have enough respect to tell me BEFORE you do it. That I possibly could recover from.....but not cheating.
I couldn''t cheat on my husband. I wouldn''t have the stomach for it. I was reluctant to waste my time dating when I WAS single becuase I didn''t like the games. I can''t imagine risking my marriage......I can''t imagine ANY one person could be worth it.
BUT.......I couldn''t stay with him. From the point at which the betrayal was revealed, I think I''d be mad as hell for a while. I think eventually we''d both mourn the loss of the relationship as it had been. But, I''m 99.99999% sure there would be no staying together. Speaking just for me.....I can''t live with someone without trust.
Only one thing would devastate me more than the hurt of being cheated on....being cheated on a SECOND time and knowing that I allowed the opportunity for that to happen by staying after the first time.
Hubby and I spoke about this in no uncertain terms at the beginning. I told him, if you really have to go be with someone else, have enough respect to tell me BEFORE you do it. That I possibly could recover from.....but not cheating.
I couldn''t cheat on my husband. I wouldn''t have the stomach for it. I was reluctant to waste my time dating when I WAS single becuase I didn''t like the games. I can''t imagine risking my marriage......I can''t imagine ANY one person could be worth it.
Mara
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decodelighted
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It's not a he's right & she's wrong .. or she's wrong & he's right scenario. OBVIOUSLY cheating is "wrong". But c'mon .. not SPEAKING to someone ever again??? That's something foot-stomping, ponytail swishing high school girls do ...COMPLETELY not realistic in a real adult world situation. I.e. -- you can't "not speak to" your BOSS or your PROFESSOR or - um - your LIFE PARTNER. You might decide to leave, it might be the end of the relationship ... but the idea of swishing & stomping away wordlessly ???
E B
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Deco (and Mara),
I don't think the situation being black and white is as much to do with age as it is a personal choice. Some people have experienced the pain of betrayal and don't choose to experience it again. Some people haven't. That isn't young, it's having a different life experience. Or simply knowing yourself and what you can or can't handle.
If my fiance cheated on me now, it'd end. Period. I can't think of a single circumstance in which I'd be willing to work through it. If he cheated on me in 5 years (when we're married), why should it be different? Because we'd have to get a divorce, and avoiding the trouble of a divorce would be worth working through the betrayal and staying? I completely respect the fact that the two of you might be able to. But that doesn't mean everyone can, or will. And it doesn't mean that person's choice (or prediction) is "young".
ETA: Sorry, I see now that you meant that not speaking to your partner again is "young", not the decision being black and white.
I don't think the situation being black and white is as much to do with age as it is a personal choice. Some people have experienced the pain of betrayal and don't choose to experience it again. Some people haven't. That isn't young, it's having a different life experience. Or simply knowing yourself and what you can or can't handle.
If my fiance cheated on me now, it'd end. Period. I can't think of a single circumstance in which I'd be willing to work through it. If he cheated on me in 5 years (when we're married), why should it be different? Because we'd have to get a divorce, and avoiding the trouble of a divorce would be worth working through the betrayal and staying? I completely respect the fact that the two of you might be able to. But that doesn't mean everyone can, or will. And it doesn't mean that person's choice (or prediction) is "young".
ETA: Sorry, I see now that you meant that not speaking to your partner again is "young", not the decision being black and white.
Officers girl
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People stop speaking to people everyday I didnt have contact with my family for over two years!! I resent the fact that you would view me as "young" for the simple fact I had to save myself from being hurt over and over again. Now Im really not sure as to if the OP was saying that she would like actually wordlessly send him away or if there would be tons of conflict followed by a decision to stop speaking to him. The latter I dont see as a lack of maturity but the first one of course would be a bad choice to make becuase it offers her no resoulution. But again I dont really know the point the OP was trying to make. Only I dont think that cutting someone out of your life is a decision marked by youth but often is much more thought out than that.Date: 1/16/2007 11:50:10 PM
Author: decodelighted
It''s not a he''s right & she''s wrong .. or she''s wrong & he''s right scenario. OBVIOUSLY cheating is ''wrong''. But c''mon .. not SPEAKING to someone ever again??? That''s something foot-stomping, ponytail swishing high school girls do ...COMPLETELY not realistic in a real adult world situation. I.e. -- you can''t ''not speak to'' your BOSS or your PROFESSOR or - um - your LIFE PARTNER. You might decide to leave, it might be the end of the relationship ... but the idea of swishing & stomping away wordlessly ???
Mara
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actually ebree greg and i were talking about this tonite.
if he had cheated on me when we were engaged, i probably would have ended it. because who honestly wants to start a marriage like that? with that kind of drama? you aren't even married and already you've got big issues. totall noty. and you are more in the clear, an engagement is way easier to get out of than a marriage. especially with no kids.
but once you get married...FOR ME personally...there's a certain committment mentally. it's like you say okay i'm taking you with all your positives and potential negatives and i can deal. it's not about the hassle of a divorce, it's that you both made a committment, for better or worse, and if you both are willing to work at it and see if you can both get past it, fabulous. i think that it's worth it. i think that people are in general too black and white these days and they don't give enough mentally to the thought of FOREVER with someone, FOR BETTER OR WORSE regardless of what the for better or worse is. there's sickness and health as a separate line. so what's the 'worse'? sometimes i honestly think that if people were not allowed to divorce (barring abuse or something) and actually were forced to work at fixing things, the world might be better off.
i mean who really knows....this is all just speculation. but i like to think that if the situation was there and the circumstances were right for us to work on it...we'd give it our absolute all to try to fix whatever was wrong before just throwing in the towel and huffing off.
oh and my comment to deco wasn't about being young..it was the 'strong bond' and easily broken kind of thing. extremes i don't agree with. just me!!
if he had cheated on me when we were engaged, i probably would have ended it. because who honestly wants to start a marriage like that? with that kind of drama? you aren't even married and already you've got big issues. totall noty. and you are more in the clear, an engagement is way easier to get out of than a marriage. especially with no kids.
but once you get married...FOR ME personally...there's a certain committment mentally. it's like you say okay i'm taking you with all your positives and potential negatives and i can deal. it's not about the hassle of a divorce, it's that you both made a committment, for better or worse, and if you both are willing to work at it and see if you can both get past it, fabulous. i think that it's worth it. i think that people are in general too black and white these days and they don't give enough mentally to the thought of FOREVER with someone, FOR BETTER OR WORSE regardless of what the for better or worse is. there's sickness and health as a separate line. so what's the 'worse'? sometimes i honestly think that if people were not allowed to divorce (barring abuse or something) and actually were forced to work at fixing things, the world might be better off.
i mean who really knows....this is all just speculation. but i like to think that if the situation was there and the circumstances were right for us to work on it...we'd give it our absolute all to try to fix whatever was wrong before just throwing in the towel and huffing off.
oh and my comment to deco wasn't about being young..it was the 'strong bond' and easily broken kind of thing. extremes i don't agree with. just me!!
E B
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I see where you''re coming from, and you''re right. Even though I feel like I know what I''d do, no one can know (100%) what they''d do in the future and I hate to speak about something before I''ve experienced the situation I''m talking about. So I''ll just say, as TG has (and I believe I have, once!) that I''m in the dark grey.
decodelighted
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I hear ya ... and I think IF & WHEN something like that happens, everyone has a right to deal with it however their experiences & values & situation & opinions *at the time* dictate.
I still think it''s hard to predict what life has in store & how your own "take on stuff" changes *dramatically* over time. And the idea that ideas/perceptions/values even WON''T change over time strikes me as a little *young* because it reveals that the person hasn''t experienced *that* yet. Now some folks are intractable! Some folks DON''T change over time ... so I''m not saying it''s a 100% accurate way to tell who is chronologically challenged (HA!
appletini
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Wow this thread has exploded!
In my opinion there are 2 kinds of cheating: 1) an emotional affair and 2) a physical affair. In my mind an emotional affair is just as bad if not worse because you share so much more than just physcial intimacy.
Also these things don''t just happen overnight, there have to be some underlying problems in the relationship to lead a person to enter either an emotion or physical affiar.
This summer one of my close friends called to tell me that she was getting divorced--I was in complete shock, and she told me that she her husband finally admitted to having affairs (physical and and plural) starting before they were engaged (and she was a virgin when they got married and he is ~10 years older than us), so once she knew about that that was it. She had been trying to make it work, but once she knew the truth he made it very easy for her to walk away and now she is happier than she has ever been b/c she has a fresh start at life.
Also though I think that a person willingly puts themselves in a position for an affair to happen, even if its subconscious. I used to love to go out all the time, but now when DH is out of town on a business trip I feel weird going out, the only I time I do now if he''s out of town is for a low key girls night to dinner or something like that.
I also told DH when we were dating (since he goes on trips occasionaly, back then they were a lot longer now they are shorter) that if he ever had an affair I''d rather it would be a person in another country that I know he''d never see again than a person in our city. But I know he''d never cheat on me b/c that is what his dad did to his mom, so its something he feels very strongly about. Also when my friend told me she was getting divorced, I told him immediately that he ever had the urge to please tell me first so that we could work on any problems before they ever reached that level, and he asked that I do the same.
I guess the other side of the coin is that if it wer me, the easiest way to sweep me off my feet is with romance and attention, but i if I don''t put myself in that situation then it won''t happen. Also most importantly is for me and my DH to *communicate* with eachother and continue to *show* eachother how much we care and do romantic things like date night etc.
In my opinion there are 2 kinds of cheating: 1) an emotional affair and 2) a physical affair. In my mind an emotional affair is just as bad if not worse because you share so much more than just physcial intimacy.
Also these things don''t just happen overnight, there have to be some underlying problems in the relationship to lead a person to enter either an emotion or physical affiar.
This summer one of my close friends called to tell me that she was getting divorced--I was in complete shock, and she told me that she her husband finally admitted to having affairs (physical and and plural) starting before they were engaged (and she was a virgin when they got married and he is ~10 years older than us), so once she knew about that that was it. She had been trying to make it work, but once she knew the truth he made it very easy for her to walk away and now she is happier than she has ever been b/c she has a fresh start at life.
Also though I think that a person willingly puts themselves in a position for an affair to happen, even if its subconscious. I used to love to go out all the time, but now when DH is out of town on a business trip I feel weird going out, the only I time I do now if he''s out of town is for a low key girls night to dinner or something like that.
I also told DH when we were dating (since he goes on trips occasionaly, back then they were a lot longer now they are shorter) that if he ever had an affair I''d rather it would be a person in another country that I know he''d never see again than a person in our city. But I know he''d never cheat on me b/c that is what his dad did to his mom, so its something he feels very strongly about. Also when my friend told me she was getting divorced, I told him immediately that he ever had the urge to please tell me first so that we could work on any problems before they ever reached that level, and he asked that I do the same.
I guess the other side of the coin is that if it wer me, the easiest way to sweep me off my feet is with romance and attention, but i if I don''t put myself in that situation then it won''t happen. Also most importantly is for me and my DH to *communicate* with eachother and continue to *show* eachother how much we care and do romantic things like date night etc.
Officers girl
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LOL at the AIDate: 1/17/2007 12:03:25 AM
Author: decodelighted
I hear ya ... and I think IF & WHEN something like that happens, everyone has a right to deal with it however their experiences & values & situation & opinions *at the time* dictate.
I still think it''s hard to predict what life has in store & how your own ''take on stuff'' changes *dramatically* over time. And the idea that ideas/perceptions/values even WON''T change over time strikes me as a little *young* because it reveals that the person hasn''t experienced *that* yet. Now some folks are intractable! Some folks DON''T change over time ... so I''m not saying it''s a 100% accurate way to tell who is chronologically challenged (HA!-- that''s a joke I swear!) and who among us is starting to look more like the PARENTS of American Idol contestants*raises hand in horror*.
I echo that first sentence tottally!! Cheating is such a personal thing to go through I would never look down on someone because of how they dealt with it because I think how you deal with it has so much to do with personality and circumstance more than anything, besides its way to hard to predict a reaction to anything!!
TravelingGal
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I consider myself as pretty pragmatic "shades of gray" kinda gal. However, I consider cheating abuse. An abuse of my trust, respect and love. Not to mention risking bringing home some disease. I can't imagine anything else where I would feel so emotionally beaten up than for the person I love most in this world to rip my heart out. I would probably feel physically beaten up too, as I can't imagine I'd do too well after learning something like that.
I fully agree there are so many different scenarios, you really can't apply a one stop solution to it all. I may be more forgiving if he came clean vs hiding it, as another poster mentioned.
I think more than anyone I know, I gave serious thought to what "better or worse" meant. It was the heart and soul of what I said to TGuy on our wedding day. We'll definitely go through better and worse and go through it together, but we both discussed before we got married that if someone cheats, that's it. If he were to cheat on me, it would seem that he's brought someone else into our union, and that negates a lot for me. Marriage, and the vows that go along with it are for two, not three.
The "dark gray" that I'm in allows me to reserve the right to change my mind...as I agree that as we get older, views may shift.
Mara
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galeteia
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I remember back in the day when FF and I were having our first round of ''serious'' discussions, and I started to expound on the subject of ''men''s procreation relies on breeding with multiple women, women''s procreation requires one man sticking around''. One ''Pffft'' later, I learned that biologically speaking, that ''men need to breed'' theory is bunk.
Biologically speaking, monogamy is the preferred route for procreation for both genders: a man must find the best woman available and then monopolize the breeding of her offspring to produce not the MOST offspring, but the BEST offspring.
Of course, logically, this doesn''t prevent men from cheating if a wandering eye convinces them there is a BETTER woman to be had.
I just wanted to add that the ''men are hardwired to have sex with whatever looks tasty because biology tells them to'' belief, while very popular, is fallacious.
(That analogy of Alj''s is dead-on. As I''d posted in another thread, I scrupulously avoid any situation that might potentially involve kindling. It''s not that I think I would be tempted to play with matches, but I consider simply being responsible to preemptively avoid it.)
Biologically speaking, monogamy is the preferred route for procreation for both genders: a man must find the best woman available and then monopolize the breeding of her offspring to produce not the MOST offspring, but the BEST offspring.
Of course, logically, this doesn''t prevent men from cheating if a wandering eye convinces them there is a BETTER woman to be had.
I just wanted to add that the ''men are hardwired to have sex with whatever looks tasty because biology tells them to'' belief, while very popular, is fallacious.
(That analogy of Alj''s is dead-on. As I''d posted in another thread, I scrupulously avoid any situation that might potentially involve kindling. It''s not that I think I would be tempted to play with matches, but I consider simply being responsible to preemptively avoid it.)
TravelingGal
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Samantha Red
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My ex husband was unfaithful in a very stereotypical way and had an affair with his very young, very blonde (peroxide) secretary. They are now married with two children and live in New Hampshire. However, having said that, if he hadn''t had fallen in love with her, I would have definitely tried again. At that point I was desperate to keep my life as I knew it, because I was scared of the unknown. In hindsight that would have been a very bad idea I think. You see, if they cross that line once and you forgive, it is almost giving permission for it to happen again. I know if I cheated on someone, who then forgave me, I would feel that I could get away with it next time more easily. As Dr Phil always says ''the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour'', and unfortunately I think it is very true. I fully expect that my ex will cheat on this wife at some point, but I no longer care as I have my beautiful toy boy keeping me very good company and looking after me now. The one downer for him is, that I would never ever tolerate it happening again and he would be down the road very quickly if he cheated on me. That is my view, for whatever it is worth. If someone really loves and respects you, they DO NOT sleep with anyone esle, no matter how fleeting.
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Thritto as Mara and Kimberley would say - Kristy said it all perfectly.Date: 1/16/2007 5:09:19 PM
Author: ellaila
Amen!! And even if we had a family, I think I'd still feel the same way -- maybe even more so actually because I would feel like he betrayed not just me but ALL of us. I don't think 'for better or worse' applies to cheating. To me, 'for better or for worse' is dealing with the ups and downs that life throws at you that you can't control. Cheating is controllable - it is intentional. And it is definitely a dealbreaker for me.
This is making me sad to even think about!
ETA - after reading some more, regarding what Kristy and some of the others have said about how they would feel after being with someone for 20 years and cheating happened - I am at that point now and I think it would be something I could never understand or come to terms with after so many years. The sky would fall in for me...
ladykemma
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i'm in the shades of gray camp.
if it is a sex addiction there is help and healing available for the whole family. sex addiction, a compulsive disorder, is a treatable, recognizable, psychiatric condition.
one thing to rememebr with a sex addiction is sex addicts have to act out every day to maintain the High and get their fix. so safety is a number one concern for the partner of a sex addict. anyway, this topic is the subject of entire books. Read patrick carnes if interested. Sex Addicts Anonymous and Codependents of Sex Addicts (CoSA) are fabulous life saving programs.
if it a love affair that is a different matter. I would not hold someone to me who is in love with someone else.
if it is a sex addiction there is help and healing available for the whole family. sex addiction, a compulsive disorder, is a treatable, recognizable, psychiatric condition.
one thing to rememebr with a sex addiction is sex addicts have to act out every day to maintain the High and get their fix. so safety is a number one concern for the partner of a sex addict. anyway, this topic is the subject of entire books. Read patrick carnes if interested. Sex Addicts Anonymous and Codependents of Sex Addicts (CoSA) are fabulous life saving programs.
if it a love affair that is a different matter. I would not hold someone to me who is in love with someone else.
bee*
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Im the same-I wouldnt date a guy that has admitted that he had cheated previously. A friend of mine totally trusted her bf (we all did) and it turned out that he had cheated on her a couple of times. None of us could believe it. He was always there when she needed him, always went out with her, Im not sure when he was doing it but he was. It was just the worst betrayal as she totally trusted him.
Its just scary as I totally trust D and I dont believe that he has ever cheated nor will cheat, as Im sure most people on this board feel the same, but you just never know. I''d much rather he tell me before he does it, than hear about it afterwards
So on the same page as you. It is the ultimate betrayal.Date: 1/17/2007 1:45:15 AM
Author: TravelingGal
I consider myself as pretty pragmatic ''shades of gray'' kinda gal. However, I consider cheating abuse. An abuse of my trust, respect and love. Not to mention risking bringing home some disease. I can''t imagine anything else where I would feel so emotionally beaten up than for the person I love most in this world to rip my heart out. I would probably feel physically beaten up too, as I can''t imagine I''d do too well after learning something like that.
I fully agree there are so many different scenarios, you really can''t apply a one stop solution to it all. I may be more forgiving if he came clean vs hiding it, as another poster mentioned.
I think more than anyone I know, I gave serious thought to what ''better or worse'' meant. It was the heart and soul of what I said to TGuy on our wedding day. We''ll definitely go through better and worse and go through it together, but we both discussed before we got married that if someone cheats, that''s it. If he were to cheat on me, it would seem that he''s brought someone else into our union, and that negates a lot for me. Marriage, and the vows that go along with it are for two, not three.
The ''dark gray'' that I''m in allows me to reserve the right to change my mind...as I agree that as we get older, views may shift.
And, to the guy who says that 90% of the people he knows cheats - get a better circle of friends. NONE & I do mean NONE of my friends have had an affair.
I hope I don''t get flamed - but I think the reason no one I know had an affair is the "fear of god" kinda view. We all know the consequences of crossing *that* line. Oh, and in doing some geneology on my hubby''s tree - he is distantly related to the "bobbed" man in No. VA.
And, I don''t think it''s unreasonable a statement that strong bond = never speaking (forgiving) again. It''s a true betrayal of a bond. Who wants to hear someone''s excuses for their betrayal. I like the vase analogy & Alj''s analogy.
Hopes
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movie zombie
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aljdewey
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I find it really curious that some are pointing to the "for better or worse" piece, because that commitment is made as part of one''s vows......yanno, the same vows that said you''d be faithful, too (or forsake all others)?
How can you weight more importance to the "better or worse" if you aren''t going to weight equal importance to the vow of faithfulness?
These elements aren''t stand-alones....they are a set.
I take you to be my wife (or husband)....
In sickness and in health,
For richer and for poorer,
For better or worse,
Forsaking all others,
For as long as we both shall live.
Marriage is a union, and the vows are the contract that govern that union. Breaching any one of them can cause a termination of the "contract".
How can you weight more importance to the "better or worse" if you aren''t going to weight equal importance to the vow of faithfulness?
These elements aren''t stand-alones....they are a set.
I take you to be my wife (or husband)....
In sickness and in health,
For richer and for poorer,
For better or worse,
Forsaking all others,
For as long as we both shall live.
Marriage is a union, and the vows are the contract that govern that union. Breaching any one of them can cause a termination of the "contract".
Mara
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As I said on another page, I don't even remember if we said the forsaking all others...I piecemealed our vows from a bunch of different vows. You can make any element a standalone when it's YOUR marriage vows. There are no rules.
I also don't really view marriage like a 'contract' where I can 'terminate' it that easily.
Where I weight my importance is on the fact that we took vows...For better or worse. WHATEVER that really entails as being of 'importance' to us. If we both believe and want it....many times you can make it happen. If only one person wants it, well then yeah not really worth fighting for obviously.
I think different people 'weight' their vows differently as well...aka what is a deal breaker to one person or the other is just so personal right?
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