Ellen
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 24,433
David, this is truely my experience & observations of what goes on in real life. Im glad you are talking about it because I have often felt that anything less than the best cut as a priority is taboo around here. I think that it is ok for `size` to be a priority for some over cut as long as the cut is still doing its job!!!!!Date: 1/28/2009 2:20:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Ellen!
The terms ''Fire'' and ''Brightness'' are probably the best we have in terms of semantics, to describe what we''re talking about- yet they are still lacking in descriptiveness.
My experience has shown me that some people will be able to spot subtle difference, and others won''t.
For example: If we compare a stone of smaller table, and greater depth- one that might be called ''Ideal'' to a well cut 60/60 there are tools that can demonstrate that there''s more ''fire'' coming from the smaller table diamond.
Not everyone will be able to see this with their eyes.
ON the other hand, if the two stones we''re comparing are both well cut ( properly proportioned with a nice girdle) the 60/60 is likely to have a greater spread- so there will be a percentage of people who will see a difference in size, but not be able to see a difference in ''fire''- OR- they may see the increased ''brightness'' of a slightly larger tabled diamond and see that as preferable. Many people do. I do.
I''m not going to call myself an expert- but I am a vendor with over 30 years experience- and I was trained to grade diamonds at Harry Winston.
That by no means makes me right- and I appreciate that you did not say my views are wrong- but it''s important to note that a great deal of diamond professionals- people who never compromise on quality of cut- feel as I do about this.
That''s one reason I''m so glad to be here- to at least explore, and represent the alternative viewpoint.
I still feel that the 1.95ct stone may very well be a great one- and don''t feel that it''s possible to eliminate it based on the information we have at hand.
If anyone who did re-cut a steep deep to better proportions can post the specifics- beginning weight and stats, and stats and weight after re-cut, I''d be so grateful- I really am interested to see what the actual losses were.
Thank you again for the stimulating conversation!
Sharon, I just wanted to add I agree with you that sometimes it feels as if anything less than the best cut is taboo around here and personally I don't want to perpetuate that. BTW I just wanted to add concerning Ellen's descriptions of steep deeps that she was spot on in that case, I mean generally concerning cut quality.Date: 1/28/2009 11:16:23 PM
Author: Sharon101
David, this is truely my experience & observations of what goes on in real life. Im glad you are talking about it because I have often felt that anything less than the best cut as a priority is taboo around here. I think that it is ok for `size` to be a priority for some over cut as long as the cut is still doing its job!!!!!Date: 1/28/2009 2:20:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Ellen!
The terms 'Fire' and 'Brightness' are probably the best we have in terms of semantics, to describe what we're talking about- yet they are still lacking in descriptiveness.
My experience has shown me that some people will be able to spot subtle difference, and others won't.
For example: If we compare a stone of smaller table, and greater depth- one that might be called 'Ideal' to a well cut 60/60 there are tools that can demonstrate that there's more 'fire' coming from the smaller table diamond.
Not everyone will be able to see this with their eyes.
ON the other hand, if the two stones we're comparing are both well cut ( properly proportioned with a nice girdle) the 60/60 is likely to have a greater spread- so there will be a percentage of people who will see a difference in size, but not be able to see a difference in 'fire'- OR- they may see the increased 'brightness' of a slightly larger tabled diamond and see that as preferable. Many people do. I do.
I'm not going to call myself an expert- but I am a vendor with over 30 years experience- and I was trained to grade diamonds at Harry Winston.
That by no means makes me right- and I appreciate that you did not say my views are wrong- but it's important to note that a great deal of diamond professionals- people who never compromise on quality of cut- feel as I do about this.
That's one reason I'm so glad to be here- to at least explore, and represent the alternative viewpoint.
I still feel that the 1.95ct stone may very well be a great one- and don't feel that it's possible to eliminate it based on the information we have at hand.
If anyone who did re-cut a steep deep to better proportions can post the specifics- beginning weight and stats, and stats and weight after re-cut, I'd be so grateful- I really am interested to see what the actual losses were.
Thank you again for the stimulating conversation!
Lorelei, I actually love the high standard of cut excellence that is strongly promoted here. Education is never wasted, whether or not the info is followed or rejected.Date: 1/29/2009 4:54:08 AM
Author: Lorelei
Sharon, I just wanted to add I agree with you that sometimes it feels as if anything less than the best cut is taboo around here and personally I don''t want to perpetuate that. BTW I just wanted to add concerning Ellen''s descriptions of steep deeps that she was spot on in that case, I mean generally concerning cut quality.Date: 1/28/2009 11:16:23 PM
Author: Sharon101
David, this is truely my experience & observations of what goes on in real life. Im glad you are talking about it because I have often felt that anything less than the best cut as a priority is taboo around here. I think that it is ok for `size` to be a priority for some over cut as long as the cut is still doing its job!!!!!Date: 1/28/2009 2:20:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Ellen!
The terms ''Fire'' and ''Brightness'' are probably the best we have in terms of semantics, to describe what we''re talking about- yet they are still lacking in descriptiveness.
My experience has shown me that some people will be able to spot subtle difference, and others won''t.
For example: If we compare a stone of smaller table, and greater depth- one that might be called ''Ideal'' to a well cut 60/60 there are tools that can demonstrate that there''s more ''fire'' coming from the smaller table diamond.
Not everyone will be able to see this with their eyes.
ON the other hand, if the two stones we''re comparing are both well cut ( properly proportioned with a nice girdle) the 60/60 is likely to have a greater spread- so there will be a percentage of people who will see a difference in size, but not be able to see a difference in ''fire''- OR- they may see the increased ''brightness'' of a slightly larger tabled diamond and see that as preferable. Many people do. I do.
I''m not going to call myself an expert- but I am a vendor with over 30 years experience- and I was trained to grade diamonds at Harry Winston.
That by no means makes me right- and I appreciate that you did not say my views are wrong- but it''s important to note that a great deal of diamond professionals- people who never compromise on quality of cut- feel as I do about this.
That''s one reason I''m so glad to be here- to at least explore, and represent the alternative viewpoint.
I still feel that the 1.95ct stone may very well be a great one- and don''t feel that it''s possible to eliminate it based on the information we have at hand.
If anyone who did re-cut a steep deep to better proportions can post the specifics- beginning weight and stats, and stats and weight after re-cut, I''d be so grateful- I really am interested to see what the actual losses were.
Thank you again for the stimulating conversation!
Remarks have been made to this effect concerning cut quality and that it has been noticed that AGS0 cut grade are being recommended often and pointed out. We all need to keep an open mind that not everyone wants a top make diamond and that there are well cut GIA graded diamonds out there ( which can still be top make) and if they are being sold by a vendor who has all the images available, then they can be an excellent and valid choice.
If a poster expresses they want a top cut AGS0 then that is perfectly fine, also other diamonds of high cut quality can have GIA reports. AGS1 can be a good choice in some cases. Yes AGS are considered to be the strictest on cut grading particularly with the 0 grade but as I said, if images are provided for GIA diamonds and they check out then no reason to not consider these diamonds, or even other diamonds of which aren''t cut to the same exacting standards but have good proportions if that is what the poster wants and the info is available. For those who might have other priorities and just want a nicely cut diamond then we need to keep an open mind in helping them find the best diamond for their particular needs, explain the trade offs of course in not going for top cut quality, but we don''t want newbies to be put off posting because they might not want the best cut money can buy and I feel we need to be mindful of that after being here a long time and watching RT evolve, and I know for a fact I am not the only one who feels this way. In my opinion, we want Rocky Talk to be a place where anyone can post regardless and receive balanced and useful advice to help them find the right diamond - yes cut is important and always will be but we need to treat each poster as an individual according to their requirements, otherwise I feel we are not best serving those who come here for advice. I am just a consumer who spends a lot of time here and I say the above from my consumers point of view.
And the above highlighted sentence is the crux of the matter and what we need to be mindful of at all times when offering advice.Date: 1/29/2009 5:29:35 AM
Author: Sharon101
Lorelei, I actually love the high standard of cut excellence that is strongly promoted here. Education is never wasted, whether or not the info is followed or rejected.Date: 1/29/2009 4:54:08 AM
Author: Lorelei
Sharon, I just wanted to add I agree with you that sometimes it feels as if anything less than the best cut is taboo around here and personally I don't want to perpetuate that. BTW I just wanted to add concerning Ellen's descriptions of steep deeps that she was spot on in that case, I mean generally concerning cut quality.Date: 1/28/2009 11:16:23 PM
Author: Sharon101
David, this is truely my experience & observations of what goes on in real life. Im glad you are talking about it because I have often felt that anything less than the best cut as a priority is taboo around here. I think that it is ok for `size` to be a priority for some over cut as long as the cut is still doing its job!!!!!Date: 1/28/2009 2:20:57 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Ellen!
The terms 'Fire' and 'Brightness' are probably the best we have in terms of semantics, to describe what we're talking about- yet they are still lacking in descriptiveness.
My experience has shown me that some people will be able to spot subtle difference, and others won't.
For example: If we compare a stone of smaller table, and greater depth- one that might be called 'Ideal' to a well cut 60/60 there are tools that can demonstrate that there's more 'fire' coming from the smaller table diamond.
Not everyone will be able to see this with their eyes.
ON the other hand, if the two stones we're comparing are both well cut ( properly proportioned with a nice girdle) the 60/60 is likely to have a greater spread- so there will be a percentage of people who will see a difference in size, but not be able to see a difference in 'fire'- OR- they may see the increased 'brightness' of a slightly larger tabled diamond and see that as preferable. Many people do. I do.
I'm not going to call myself an expert- but I am a vendor with over 30 years experience- and I was trained to grade diamonds at Harry Winston.
That by no means makes me right- and I appreciate that you did not say my views are wrong- but it's important to note that a great deal of diamond professionals- people who never compromise on quality of cut- feel as I do about this.
That's one reason I'm so glad to be here- to at least explore, and represent the alternative viewpoint.
I still feel that the 1.95ct stone may very well be a great one- and don't feel that it's possible to eliminate it based on the information we have at hand.
If anyone who did re-cut a steep deep to better proportions can post the specifics- beginning weight and stats, and stats and weight after re-cut, I'd be so grateful- I really am interested to see what the actual losses were.
Thank you again for the stimulating conversation!
Remarks have been made to this effect concerning cut quality and that it has been noticed that AGS0 cut grade are being recommended often and pointed out. We all need to keep an open mind that not everyone wants a top make diamond and that there are well cut GIA graded diamonds out there ( which can still be top make) and if they are being sold by a vendor who has all the images available, then they can be an excellent and valid choice.
If a poster expresses they want a top cut AGS0 then that is perfectly fine, also other diamonds of high cut quality can have GIA reports. AGS1 can be a good choice in some cases. Yes AGS are considered to be the strictest on cut grading particularly with the 0 grade but as I said, if images are provided for GIA diamonds and they check out then no reason to not consider these diamonds, or even other diamonds of which aren't cut to the same exacting standards but have good proportions if that is what the poster wants and the info is available. For those who might have other priorities and just want a nicely cut diamond then we need to keep an open mind in helping them find the best diamond for their particular needs, explain the trade offs of course in not going for top cut quality, but we don't want newbies to be put off posting because they might not want the best cut money can buy and I feel we need to be mindful of that after being here a long time and watching RT evolve, and I know for a fact I am not the only one who feels this way. In my opinion, we want Rocky Talk to be a place where anyone can post regardless and receive balanced and useful advice to help them find the right diamond - yes cut is important and always will be but we need to treat each poster as an individual according to their requirements, otherwise I feel we are not best serving those who come here for advice. I am just a consumer who spends a lot of time here and I say the above from my consumers point of view.
Sometimes I just want to scream that cut is actually something that is built into the price. And for people with very fixed budgets, sometimes I feel that a little more size couldnt hurt!!!! But in chasing the very top cuts, size has to be compromised. And sometimes I wonder if the wearers best interests has really been served.
As my own example, everyone here emphatically warned me not to purchase my diamond (bought by my jeweller husband actually). And to be honest, it caused many a fight between me and hubby over the cut & therefore the look of my diamond. For ages I even hated the fact that my diamond wasnt cut right etc.
But oh boy....if you could experience even one day of wearing this ring. I get hounded over this diamond....people swoon..people stare.....I get soooo many adoring comments it is unbelievable. And, the diamond actually does perform...maybe not to the degree of a top cut but there is still 4 carats of really good diamond realastate working here!!!!!
So, in a way...I have to speak about the other side of the story.
And in saying all this, if I could choose size and top cut ....I would be there in a second.
Infact for my smaller diamond purchases li8ke eternity ring, I will strive for top cuts.
Sharon, just for the record, I never suggested to the OP he get a smaller, better cut stone. If you look back, I suggested 2 of the 2 ct. stones already linked in here to him, that were the size he wanted, in a better cut. I''m quite aware some want size over cut, and I always try to find/suggest the best cut in the size someone wants if that''s their main objective.Date: 1/29/2009 5:29:35 AM
Author: Sharon101
Lorelei, I actually love the high standard of cut excellence that is strongly promoted here. Education is never wasted, whether or not the info is followed or rejected.
Sometimes I just want to scream that cut is actually something that is built into the price. And for people with very fixed budgets, sometimes I feel that a little more size couldnt hurt!!!! But in chasing the very top cuts, size has to be compromised. And sometimes I wonder if the wearers best interests has really been served.
As my own example, everyone here emphatically warned me not to purchase my diamond (bought by my jeweller husband actually). And to be honest, it caused many a fight between me and hubby over the cut & therefore the look of my diamond. For ages I even hated the fact that my diamond wasnt cut right etc.
But oh boy....if you could experience even one day of wearing this ring. I get hounded over this diamond....people swoon..people stare.....I get soooo many adoring comments it is unbelievable. And, the diamond actually does perform...maybe not to the degree of a top cut but there is still 4 carats of really good diamond realastate working here!!!!!
So, in a way...I have to speak about the other side of the story.
And in saying all this, if I could choose size and top cut ....I would be there in a second.
Infact for my smaller diamond purchases li8ke eternity ring, I will strive for top cuts.
Good idea!Date: 1/29/2009 2:12:02 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Kelli!
I think maybe we should start a new thread so as not the further thread-jack...
But I do have a question....Kelli, did your diamond have a GIA report with cut grade before the recut?
It looks promising, one thing though with the diamond being SI2 clarity, do you know what the grade setting inclusion/s are, such as a cloud? That would be useful to know as sometimes if a cloud inclusion is the reason a diamond gets an SI2 grade, then occasionally it can cause a loss of brilliance in the diamond - however '' clouds not shown'' in the comments section is not an issue. So if you could find this out, it would be helpful.Date: 2/2/2009 10:59:01 AM
Author: iameuro
Hello All,
So I ended up going to a diamond dealer. He''s shown me several stones and I actually did not see any diffirence between I or J color. So I think I stay with a J color stone since it will allowe me to stay within my range.
He offered me the following stone: GIA Cert # 15299142 2.05 ct (http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=15299142&weight=2.05)
and told me they will recreate the following band in platinum (http://www.artofplatinum.com/4images/data/media/6/r1007_020Ww.jpg) all in $14.5K....
The stone is eye clean and Total Visual Performance 0.8 - Excellent within TIC range..
He said the setting is around $2K so that means he is charging me $12.5 for the stone...
What do you guys think ?
" Additional clouds not shown" is basically a non issue and nothing to worry about, this is a commonly seen remark in the comments section of a grading report. If a cloud is a grade maker - in other words a reason or one of them that the diamond received an SI2 grade, then that warrants checking. The only way to check with a grade setting cloud if it has a negative effect on a diamond is to ask the vendor or an appraiser.Date: 2/5/2009 5:34:47 AM
Author: Imdanny
'Additional clouds are not shown'. How are you going to check on that? What is the standard for 'checking'? Is the vendor going to tell you the clouds are terrible and you shouldn't buy the diamond?
What is 'surface graining'?
Why would clouds NOT affect the performance of a stone?
OP, if I were you I would be asking these questions, but then again I personally wouldn't require a 2ct diamond.