Gulf of Mexico ------>>>>>> Gulf of America

[Rockdiamond]

It's sadder beyond words that smart people with very bad intentions have us arguing about the name of a body of water.
If you about it critically, it's possible to see both sides. People on both sides see it as a respect issue. No one is "wrong, and who really gives $hit??
Thinking critically again- it's a very cost effective manner of dividing us. It's also a distraction from other, crucial happenings around the world.
Peace brothers and sisters

 

[LilAlex]

I like men so I have no comment to that sexist meme.

I'm a man and I don't mind the meme. It's kind of on the nose.

But I hate the expression "toxic masculinity" -- as if it were some qualified version of actual masculinity. It's just being an a$$hole. Why did we need a new name for that? It has nothing whatsoever to do with what it means to be a man. In my ancestral culture, to "be a man" means to do the right thing. Not to be a bully or belittle others or take advantage of your stature or influence.

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

“To criticize one's country is to do it a service... Criticism, in short, is more than a right; it is an act of patriotism--a higher form of patriotism, I believe, than the familiar rituals and national adulation.”​

― J. William Fulbright (Senator)

Veterans are being thrown under the bus due to the commander in chief's (who thinks injured military personnel are "losers") mandatory efficiency reductions. That is not something of which I'm proud and which I will criticize and I definitely agree with you that those reduction efforts show the ugly side of people toward those who have risked their lives for the safety of us all.

"The Department of Veterans Affairs confirmed late Thursday night that it has let go of more than 1,000 probationary employees this week.

For every four employees who leave, only one can be replaced. For an already understaffed VA, this is a disaster. Veterans’ medical care, disability claims, and support services depend on an adequate workforce. Slashing hiring ensures growing backlogs, worsening care, and increased suffering for those who rely on VA services. With an aging veteran population and an expanded VA mission under previous administrations, now is the time to invest in the VA, not gut it.

...executive order doesn’t just stop at limiting new hires; it also forces immediate reductions in force, cutting positions that aren’t explicitly mandated by law. This means administrative staff, veteran outreach programs, and transition assistance services will be among the first to go. These programs provide critical support for transitioning service members, veterans seeking jobs, and military families overseas. Many depend on these programs for child care, job placement, and legal guidance — services that help make the transition from military to civilian life possible. Now, veterans and their families are being left to fend for themselves.

To make matters worse, the hiring process at the VA is now controlled by DOGE “team leads,” who have final approval over new employees. Instead of a merit-based system, hiring decisions are now subject to unnecessary delays and potential political interference. Some of these so-called team leads do not appear to have any government experience, and are instead young political operatives...

The VA is already grappling with a severe workforce shortage in medical and benefits processing roles.

This new bureaucratic bottleneck ensures hiring will stall completely, leaving veterans without the services they need. But that may be the point — by making the VA so dysfunctional, veterans will either suffer in silence or be forced into the private sector, where profits come before care.

Trump and Musk's Valentine's Day Massacre of Military Veterans

Donald Trump and Elon Musk have laid off thousands of government employees this week, including 1,000 staffers at the Department of Veterans Affairs.

www.rollingstone.com

My comment wasn’t directed at Americans bashing America. I was really surprised to see others from what I’m assuming are other countries doing so. I haven’t traveled in quite a while outside of the US and so I don’t have a good grasp of the feel for how people think of Americans, but I was just shocked at some of the disparaging comments (I don’t feel the need to personally call people out). The sentiment is what struck me as really bitter and surprising.

My own sense is that it is rooted in envy of Americans and what we have/what we represent. The tenor of this thread seems to be that America can’t have anything more as they have enough. Even when it comes to naming or re-naming a body of water off our own coast. Because of course there is so much more in the re-naming of something: there’s also an implied ownership or dominion. And that’s what people really don’t like, I’d imagine.

 

[JPie]

I’m not sure that people envy what America has, so much as they’re aware of how we gained that wealth and rightfully resent us for it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

As far as how people overseas think of Americans...in my experience, I think it's an individual thing when traveling abroad. I've always found that learning a few words in the native language helps tremendously.
Can we all agree that in terms of actual law...be it nutso, or eccentric, people can call things whatever they want?
For example- there's a relatively new bridge crossing the Hudson 20 miles north of NYC.
It's the TAPPAN ZEE bridge, for the rest of my life- that's what I call it.
Some governor named the new bridge after his dad- and I loved his dad.
BUt fercryin out loud.
I suppose they can get people to change signage and things, but some people will always call it what they want.
Does anyone want to live in a country where that's illegal???
Isn't it scary to think that's where we are at?

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

I’m not sure that people envy what America has, so much as they’re aware of how we gained that wealth and rightfully resent us for it.

I think you are right in that they resent us for how we have gotten things and also feel there is jealousy for what we have. I don’t apologize for any of it.

Sadly, I believe that we don’t live in a world where everything will always be equal. Humans don’t work like that. Or else all these pretty rings in our profile pics would be shared with others and common property. There will be those who have more and those who have less. Winners and losers.

I’m proud to be an American; not only for what this country represents, but for the fight and struggle to get us to where we are.

To be a winner and dominant in the world, it seems to come with resentment as the cost.

 

[kenny]

I’m not sure that people envy what America has, so much as they’re aware of how we gained that wealth and rightfully resent us for it.

In particular, slavery.
The wealth generated by that many free "worker" must be astronomical.
What a nice (and unfair) way to launch a country to prosperity.

But as a group, how are the descendants of slaves doing today?

 

[Matata]

I was really surprised to see others from what I’m assuming are other countries doing so. I haven’t traveled in quite a while outside of the US and so I don’t have a good grasp of the feel for how people think of Americans, but I was just shocked at some of the disparaging comments (I don’t feel the need to personally call people out). The sentiment is what struck me as really bitter and surprising.

I've traveled extensively in Europe and the only time I encountered extremely friendly Europeans is immediately after 9/11. Otherwise we were typically viewed askance and it was a surprise to me because I didn't know the extent to which Americans are disliked outside of our borders. It was humbling and educational. In general, I think we are naive in thinking that we're loved or respected by other countries regardless of whether they are allies.

Our politics play a part and so does the behavior of the stereotypical ugly American traveling abroad without any knowledge about or respect for cultural and social norms of the places they're visiting. We met and had great conversations with individual Europeans and were told it was nice for them to speak with Americans who weren't rude and arrogant which were the two words I heard most often used to describe Americans.

As far as comments in this thread, the current administration has stated that it wants to make Canada the 51st state, buy Greenland, and own Gaza. The hubris in the notion that we can simply make a country our 51st state and then threaten it in subtle ways if it resists the idea is beyond the pale. Americans would be incensed if either Canada or Mexico tried to make us their's. Diplomacy is an art sorely lacking in some politicians who represent us and the world views all Americans through the lens of our representatives and our leaders.

 

[kenny]

I think you are right in that they resent us for how we have gotten things and also feel there is jealousy for what we have. I don’t apologize for any of it.
...

IMO you should .. well not so much you personally ... but for those Americans who preceded you.

I've never been a slave owner.
............... but I recognize and acknowledge that I benefit from the warm & comfy financial legacy that, particularly white, Americans enjoy as a legacy of slavery.

 

[Garnetgirl]

It's also a distraction from other, crucial happenings around the world.

This.

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

IMO you should .. well not so much you personally ... but for those Americans who preceded you.

Sorry Kenny. I disagree that I need to listen to what you think I should or shouldn’t do or believe. That’s your business and I’ll make up my own mind and ideas.

But I enjoy also hearing your ideas and posts, just not that I “should” think like you.

Thank you.

 

[LilAlex]

To be a winner and dominant in the world, it seems to come with resentment as the cost.

When expressed this way, with a seeming lack of humility and empathy, and an evident lack of appreciation for how the US got where it is (hint: it's not all "freedom," brilliance, and hard work), it's not hard to see where the resentment comes from.

That said, in my own lifetime the US led by example and was something of a beacon -- however imperfect and, at times, self-deluded. Now (right now) the US is just an ignorant, selfish bully on the world stage and even most Americans recognize that. Traveling internationally 2016 - 2020, I was impressed how I was pitied as an American. I didn't encounter anger -- just disbelief and genuine pity for how far we had allowed ourselves to fall. Can't imagine what I'll hear now overseas in cabs, Ubers, restaurants, and shops.

You can say that you don't care what "other people" think. (And I hear that on here sometimes.) I do care what other people think -- it's how we learn about ourselves and the appropriateness of our actions. Without that mirror, we're sociopaths.

I'm not leaving, though; we fix problems, not ignore them.

 

[Matata]

You can say that you don't care what "other people" think. (And I hear that on here sometimes.) I do care what other people think -- it's how we learn about ourselves and the appropriateness of our actions. Without that mirror, we're sociopaths.

If those who don't care what other people think would just stop and consider where we are, there would be no question why we should care. We should care because we share this tiny pale blue dot of irrelevance to the rest of the universe and what each of us does cumulatively affects everything and everyone else on the planet regardless of whether we can see/hear/feel/touch the effects.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Some unelected billionaire’s wondkids fired a bunch of people involved in keeping our nuclear arsenal secure.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/sweeping-us-energy-department-layoffs-hit-nuclear-security-loans-office-sources-2025-02-14/

Nuthin to see here, let’s keep on discussing renaming bodies of water.
I’m sure these 20somethings know a it more than the “experts”

 

[Lookinagain]

For it to be equal in relationship to purchases we should be collecting VAT, import and duty fees on everything purchased outside the USA that is imported here.

You also said (I can't get it to quote) Yes, imported goods from the United States are subject to Value Added Tax (VAT) when entering the European Union.

You're missing the point that at least in the EU and UK they pay VAT on things produced in the EU and UK or anywhere else. Not just on imports. Its somewhat comparable to a national sales tax. They pay VAT on everything that they buy. Just like if you were in Texas, and bought something made in France, you'd pay sales tax to Texas. It's not because of where it is made, it's because it's a consumption tax imposed by the state. And Vat isn't paid when something enters the EU, it's paid at the point of consumption.

As @Tartansparkles said
I'm the the UK, as a consumer mostly everything I purchase includes VAT at the rate of 20%.
She doesn't limit it to imports.
And @Starstruck8 points out the same is true in Australia
I'm in Australia. If (as I understand it) VAT is like our GST (Goods and Services Tax), it is even less discriminatory than you imply. GST is a tax on final consumption. It applies just as much to goods and services produced entirely in Australia as to imported goods and services.

Otherwise we were typically viewed askance and it was a surprise to me because I didn't know the extent to which Americans are disliked outside of our borders. It was humbling and educational.

That's interesting, as I've only encountered that once, in Paris, at a restaurant with a snotty waiter many years ago. Other than that, I've felt very welcomed and I've been travelling to many parts of Europe, several times a year for over 20 years. Not sure why our experiences differed, but I'm sorry you felt disliked.

 

[Calliecake]

Scary Stuff @Rockdiamond! It was just a quick story on the news tonight. Unbelievable!

 

[Calliecake]

My husband spent a 1/3 of the time in London during 2017, 2018 and 2019.
Luckly he knew these people for years and they were all friends. No one he talked to was happy with America’s choice. He heard lots of negative comments regarding that choice. They thought our country had lost our minds. He was surprised at how many people followed what was happening here.

 

[Avondale]

arrogant

I mean....

Even when it comes to naming or re-naming a body of water off our own coast. Because of course there is so much more in the re-naming of something: there’s also an implied ownership or dominion.

Here's the thing.

First, The Gulf of Mexico isn't part only of the US' coastline, not in the slightest.

Second, there's international law, treaties and strict rules on how much of the water next to the land belongs to each respective country. The rest is international waters, and international waters belong to no one.

To assume or even imply that the entire Gulf of Mexico is territorial waters to the US would be the very definition of being arrogant, if not grossly misinformed.

The Gulf of Mexico does not belong to the US.

This is precisely why the executive order for renaming it to Gulf of America only applies in the US - because that's all the power it has. It can force your domestic agencies and other government bodies to call it that. Nothing more.

If at this point you don't see how this exercise in "dominion" isn't laughable to almost everyone on the outside (and by the looks of it, to many on the inside as well), I would suspect that you're looking at this situation through very vividly rose tinted glasses.

 

[JPie]

When expressed this way, with a seeming lack of humility and empathy, and an evident lack of appreciation for how the US got where it is (hint: it's not all "freedom," brilliance, and hard work), it's not hard to see where the resentment comes from.

That said, in my own lifetime the US led by example and was something of a beacon -- however imperfect and, at times, self-deluded. Now (right now) the US is just an ignorant, selfish bully on the world stage and even most Americans recognize that. Traveling internationally 2016 - 2020, I was impressed how I was pitied as an American. I didn't encounter anger -- just disbelief and genuine pity for how far we had allowed ourselves to fall. Can't imagine what I'll hear now overseas in cabs, Ubers, restaurants, and shops.

You can say that you don't care what "other people" think. (And I hear that on here sometimes.) I do care what other people think -- it's how we learn about ourselves and the appropriateness of our actions. Without that mirror, we're sociopaths.

I'm not leaving, though; we fix problems, not ignore them.

I’m not convinced that we were ever a beacon for good. Within the past 100 years America has:

Overthrown the democratically elected government of Chile

Overthrown the democratically elected governments in Guatemala and Nicaragua

Left our territory of Puerto Rico devestated by hurricanes

This isn’t even covering the carnage we’ve inflicted upon the Middle East, all in the name of empire. It also doesn’t cover the genocide of Native American populations and more around the world.

Unlike @Tigerlilyrosepetal I can’t be proud of this American legacy and I don’t accept this as the cost of winning.

 

[Avondale]

I didn't know the extent to which Americans are disliked outside of our borders.

For what it's worth, Matata, the Americans I have met personally when traveling have all been friendly and outgoing, and my experiences with them have been generally positive.

The view of the country and its administration does not necessarily apply to the people living in it.

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

When expressed this way, with a seeming lack of humility and empathy, and an evident lack of appreciation for how the US got where it is (hint: it's not all "freedom," brilliance, and hard work), it's not hard to see where the resentment comes from.

That said, in my own lifetime the US led by example and was something of a beacon -- however imperfect and, at times, self-deluded. Now (right now) the US is just an ignorant, selfish bully on the world stage and even most Americans recognize that. Traveling internationally 2016 - 2020, I was impressed how I was pitied as an American. I didn't encounter anger -- just disbelief and genuine pity for how far we had allowed ourselves to fall. Can't imagine what I'll hear now overseas in cabs, Ubers, restaurants, and shops.

You can say that you don't care what "other people" think. (And I hear that on here sometimes.) I do care what other people think -- it's how we learn about ourselves and the appropriateness of our actions. Without that mirror, we're sociopaths.

I'm not leaving, though; we fix problems, not ignore them.

Hi,
To be clear, I never said I don’t care what others think. Simply, that I don’t agree that I should think like someone else because they said I should.

In fact, I decided to engage in this thread as a way to think critically and engage with others. I think we need to be careful not to assume too much and devolve into personal bashing (sociopath reference) or assumptions because we express differing ideas @LilAlex

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

I mean....

Here's the thing.

First, The Gulf of Mexico isn't part only of the US' coastline, not in the slightest.

Second, there's international law, treaties and strict rules on how much of the water next to the land belongs to each respective country. The rest is international waters, and international waters belong to no one.

To assume or even imply that the entire Gulf of Mexico is territorial waters to the US would be the very definition of being arrogant, if not grossly misinformed.

The Gulf of Mexico does not belong to the US.

This is precisely why the executive order for renaming it to Gulf of

Here's the thing.

First, The Gulf of Mexico isn't part only of the US' coastline, not in the slightest.

Second, there's international law, treaties and strict rules on how much of the water next to the land belongs to each respective country. The rest is international waters, and international waters belong to no one.

To assume or even imply that the entire Gulf of Mexico is territorial waters to the US would be the very definition of being arrogant, if not grossly misinformed.

The Gulf of Mexico does not belong to the US.

This is precisely why the executive order for renaming it to Gulf of America only applies in the US - because that's all the power it has. It can force your domestic agencies and other government bodies to call it that. Nothing more.

If at this point you don't see how this exercise in "dominion" isn't laughable to almost everyone on the outside (and by the looks of it, to many on the inside as well), I would suspect that you're looking at this situation through very vividly rose tinted glasses.

@Avondale,
I was making observations about that the act of naming implies or can make people think of ownership or dominion-and that idea of Americans with more bothers people. It was an observation. I know we don’t own the Gulf.

Curious as to where you are from and why there is so much resentment? Is it widespread in your country? Or pocketed to liberal minded people?

 

[missy]

You know what, sometimes it is possible to care too much what others think.

In my opinion that is Israel's downfall.
They couldn't win in the court of public opinion (and can never due to anti semitism that is so strong some who are anti Semitic refuse to believe it) yet they tried and tried and because of that there are still hostages being held.Because of that so many more people died. Because of that Hamas still exists. IMO Israel should have decimated Hamas on day ONE. And we also should NEVER negotiate with terrotists. By doing so we are all vulnerable to these attacks happening again and again. Yes easier said than done but if we never negotiated with terrorists this would not keep happening.

 

[Tigerlilyrosepetal]

I’m not convinced that we were ever a beacon for good. Within the past 100 years America has:

Overthrown the democratically elected government of Chile

Overthrown the democratically elected governments in Guatemala and Nicaragua

Left our territory of Puerto Rico devestated by hurricanes

This isn’t even covering the carnage we’ve inflicted upon the Middle East, all in the name of empire. It also doesn’t cover the genocide of Native American populations and more around the world.

Unlike @Tigerlilyrosepetal I can’t be proud of this American legacy and I don’t accept this as the cost of winning.

I’m not convinced that we were ever a beacon for good. Within the past 100 years America has:

Overthrown the democratically elected government of Chile

Overthrown the democratically elected governments in Guatemala and Nicaragua

Left our territory of Puerto Rico devestated by hurricanes

This isn’t even covering the carnage we’ve inflicted upon the Middle East, all in the name of empire. It also doesn’t cover the genocide of Native American populations and more around the world.

Unlike @Tigerlilyrosepetal I can’t be proud of this American legacy and I don’t accept this as the cost of winning.

Hi @JPie,
I out of curiosity, is there anything that you are proud of that America stands for?

 

[missy]

I out of curiosity, is there anything that you are proud of that America stands for?

I get not being proud of America. It was shameful how the past administration behaved. SHAMEFUL. I was embarrassed by them. It's ironic how so many PSers are blind to how egregious their behavior truly was and that is why, IMO, the current administration is in power. But we cannot discuss that sadly. We can only discuss it with half measures which does not allow for proper discourse.

I am hopeful for the future. And I will remain so until shown otherwise. I was not hopeful during the past 16 months after October 7th. And now I have hope again. As do many Americans. Is this administration perfect? Hell no. But the last one was so effing dangerous and yet people here cannot see that. Thankful many Americans were able to however.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Because of that Hamas still exists. IMO Israel should have decimated Hamas on day ONE.

That would’ve been awesome. Except it would have been totally impossible….the thought of riddi;g the world of these heinous terrorists is enticing. But given the realities, impossible. The reaction from Israel was expected. We now have an entire generation of kids who will hate the other side till they die.

The leaders of Israel had the responsibility to protect their citizens. The failure was monumental. Where was the army? Who was asleep at the wheel??
I think many people were sold a bill of goods. The US isn’t in a position to directly impact events in Israel as much as people might think. We really need to look to the leaders of Israel for that.
I have a lot of skin in this - it’s not academic for me. Leaders on BOTH SIDES benefit from savage actions. This has led to forcing moderate people on both sides to become justifiably more angry.
It was so very convenient - and easy - to then blame the former US administration. Perfect storm. Wonder how Muslims in Michigan feel about their votes now that the talk is about getting rid of the people who lived there and turning Gaza into a “big beautiful resort”?
From my perspective the best interest of Israel is a stable US presence in the world.
Speaking of that- what’s that take on prohibiting the largest news organization from the world because they refuse to call it Gulf of America? It is the First Amendment for a reason. Freedom of the press. Losing that scares the heck out of me….
@missy. I wish I could borrow some of your hope. Many of us are terrified watching what’s going on right now

 

[missy]

That would’ve been awesome. Except it would have been totally impossible….the thought of riddi;g the world of these heinous terrorists is enticing. But given the realities, impossible. The reaction from Israel was expected. We now have an entire generation of kids who will hate the other side till they die.

The leaders of Israel had the responsibility to protect their citizens. The failure was monumental. Where was the army? Who was asleep at the wheel??
I think many people were sold a bill of goods. The US isn’t in a position to directly impact events in Israel as much as people might think. We really need to look to the leaders of Israel for that.
I have a lot of skin in this - it’s not academic for me. Leaders on BOTH SIDES benefit from savage actions. This has led to forcing moderate people on both sides to become justifiably more angry.
It was so very convenient - and easy - to then blame the former US administration. Perfect storm. Wonder how Muslims in Michigan feel about their votes now that the talk is about getting rid of the people who lived there and turning Gaza into a “big beautiful resort”?
From my perspective the best interest of Israel is a stable US presence in the world.
Speaking of that- what’s that take on prohibiting the largest news organization from the world because they refuse to call it Gulf of America?

David you and I will never agree on this. I get you have skin in the game. We all do. And I realize 99% of the very liberal PSers agree with you. I am fine with being in the very small minority here. I don’t need validation from PSers. . I too was left leaning. No more. It’s been twisted into something unrecognizable. This is not the Democratic Party we grew up with and no longer bears any resemblance to common sense behavior. Do you see how many New Yorkers demonstrate for Hamas? Do you see how Jews are being treated in the USA? Across the college campuses all over the USA? How absolutely nothing was done to protect them?


If you don’t I can’t help you see. But respectfully will agree to disagree with you. Peace. I have no ill will towards you but am sad you aren’t waking up to the hate we experience. How is this acceptable? Stop siding with those who want to destroy us. Make no mistake the past administration was hell bent on destroying us.


And precisely because my voice is one of the only dissenting voices here I feel the need to speak. I was never a political person but I sure am now. Our very existence depends on us speaking out and standing with Israel. Without Israel we fall. And so does the USA. Welcome to the Islamic caliphate. They don’t make their wishes secret yet so many choose to continue being blind

This truly impacts us all. Sooner or later

 

[Rockdiamond]

I am grateful for the dialog Missy. Having traveled a lot inside the US, I know and have experienced plenty of antisemitism from right-leaning people.
I honestly don’t believe it’s a Dem vs Repub issue- and getting people to buy into that is part of the plan.
Part of the reason we are where we are is the division. Getting people into groups. Let’s fight over the name of the Gulf. What a useful way of getting us to look away while our government is dismantled. It seems so obvious that one person is sitting back, and thrilled to see us argue.
I guarantee you that many left leaning people share your love of Israel and stand just as firmly in support of the Jewish State.
I’m extremely worried about the American State, at this point.

 

[missy]

I am grateful for the dialog Missy. Having traveled a lot inside the US, I know and have experienced plenty of antisemitism from right-leaning people.
I honestly don’t believe it’s a Dem vs Repub issue- and getting people to buy into that is part of the plan.
Part of the reason we are where we are is the division. Getting people into groups. Let’s fight over the name of the Gulf. What a useful way of getting us to look away while our government is dismantled. It seems so obvious that one person is sitting back, and thrilled to see us argue.
I guarantee you that many left leaning people share your love of Israel and stand just as firmly in support of the Jewish State.
I’m extremely worried about the American State, at this point.

David I agree with you on this. And I too am grateful for the dialogue and calm nature of the conversation. Much appreciated. I can’t mention you know who but he is his own worst enemy imo. He likes to incite. Not the way a leader should behave.

Fwiw I’ve always been a registered independent. I don’t buy into any one party. They all have cons and tbh not a fan of any politician for the most part. Corruption runs amok in all parties

 

[Rockdiamond]

If only he was only “his own” worst enemy.
We have TWO countries whose leaders are only not in jail because they’re in office.
So sad.
And current leaders of our country overseas meeting with far right neo Nazis in Germany.

Yesterday.

Nothing to see here. Gulf of Distraction ????