PS Mommy Thread-Newborn to 12 months!

[Sha]

Thanks for the comments on the solids = sleep question. I'm going to do a bit more research on it. I only tried Dalila on the rice cereal once - she loved it and was grabbing at the spoon after a few minutes! My preference is really to wait until 6 months to start solids, though. I only caved because of the sleep deprivation. If the rice cereal isn't going to make a difference, I might just continue dealing with the sleep deprivation for now, until she's closer to 6 months at least.

Mara - thanks for the suggestion. I didn't realize oatmeal could have that effect. I do have a box of oatmeal too....but can you start oatmeal before rice is established? I think I read that it's best to start with rice cereal first, since it's the easiest on the tummy/less likely to cause allergies.

Vizla - thanks for the sympathy!

You're right, maybe I just need to think about the whole sleep thing differently for now. I realize that there are some things I can do to make it easier until she STTrN - like going to sleep right after she goes down for the night and not falling asleep on the couch when I wake up for night feedings (doesn't make me feel as rested). I've also bought some earplugs for Dalila, to help decrease the noise from the barking dogs next door.

Pandora - thanks!

You're right about that twinkle in her eye! I see it all the time - like when she pushes over the basket of diapers when I'm changing her, then tries to pull down the curtains.

I think she's going to be feisty one!

Interesting to hear about the different approach to bf/ff in UK hospitals. My friend, who had her baby in the US, was telling me one of the things they give you on leaving (she says she got lots of great stuff - diapers, bulb syringes, etc and was even offered a bassinet and carseat) was a can of formula. I wondered if that wouldn't encourage some women to go straight to the formula... Just a thought. I don't know what they tell you at the hospital though. I do notice on 'Bringing HOme Baby' on TLC, that a lot of women start off with formula for things like the milk not coming in yet, or because the baby developed jaundice, as recommended by the hospital. I don't live in the US, though, so I don't know if that reflects what actually happens at the hospital.

Anyway, off to work!! Happy Thursday to everyone I missed!

 

[taovandel]

Evan is formula fed and he is not overweight and definitely not close to being overweight....he''s always been well under the 50% for weight. So I don''t think you can always attribute weight gain to formula.....

Also, I''m with TG 100% word for word on her post for formula feeding and the "risks".

 

[phoenixgirl]

Well, I certainly didn''t mean to begin a debate on BFing. I was just agreeing that it''s hard, and I was celebrating that we are almost to the 6 month point because goodness knows it wasn''t easy to get here. Just like with having (needing? hurmph) a C section, I''m so glad we live in an age when formula is available. For some babies, it''s a godsend.

That brings me to something that Summer All Year PG plans to research -- the history of wetnursing. In an age prior to formula or when a mother died in childbirth, that was your only option, right? Can you imagine if your job was to nurse other people''s babies? Fascinating!

Claire is staying home with me today. I finally feel at peace with the house being in order even though I (shhhh!) haven''t started grading my seniors'' essays yet. But grades aren''t due until next Friday so I have some time. I''m going to grade a few here and there while she plays or naps instead of doing some crazy marathon grading session at the end of my spring break.

 

[cdt1101]

Ok..I really hate to get into these ridiculous debates on FF vs BF, but I personally get offended when I hear some of the comments here. I guess I’m one of those *uneducated* woman, but I did not BF…I really had ZERO desire….sure I tried it, but it was half-a**ed at best. I got over my guilt LONG ago. I wasn’t BF, and I’m not overweight and rarely ever sick. Yes, I was HUGE baby (and so is my son) and I had seasonal allergies, but I grew out of those things. And I’m plenty smart enough

I think baby size largely has to do w/ GENETICS! I mean, if formula really made babies *so* fat, why are most of my friends kids quite lean and all formula fed? Answer: their parents are thin. My brother is 6’ 3”, 175 lbs (very lean) and was in the 90% for weight when a baby and FF. I think Tgal’s Amelia is another great example of formula not making babies fat! It gets really old hearing how *evil* formula apparently is (and all those risks

)….It’s a woman’s choice to BF or FF and she has the right to do either and shouldn’t get sh*t for her decision!!

And lastly, I can think of examples (on here) of adorable chubby EBF babies!! So stop already with the comments.

 

[Mandarine]

Ginger, I meant to reply to one of your questions yesterday and got sidetracked!. Re: schedules...I always tried to drive my babies to eating every 3 hours around the clock during the day. By two months they were mostly doing it...but sometimes (during growth spurts) they could only go 2 hours between feeds. Not sure if that answers your question!!!. Mine have reflux, but is a mild case. I don't recall if you have tried the formula with added rice starch? It helped my boys a LOT! (Enfamil AR)...and I don't recall if you're supplementing, so that may be a mute point!

Re: BM vs formula I'm 100% with TGal on this. I wish they would educate people differently. I think I almost got sucked into a depression because of BFing issues. I carried a LOT of guilt when making the decision to stop pumping. I was miserable, cried every day and started resenting the babies when they wouldn't latch...or if they spit up the sad little 2oz I was able to pump. I was just miserable. I tried...I REALLY tried...but at the end of the day I chose to stop because I knew they deserved a happy and sane mommy. A week after making that decision, the fog lifted and I was much happier (thus babies and DH were happier too!!!).

I do think it is awesome to be able to BF successfully. I do agree that BM is best...but that's just not always the case. It does NOT always work and moms shouldn't have to feel guilty or like they're not giving their babies the best just because they chose to go the formula route.

I know friends that went straight for formula. That was their decision...and you know what? what matters is that they were happy about that and they knew they would make better moms if they went that route, for WHATEVER reason. I'm happy I gave it a try, but I really wish someone would have told me how hard it was going to be. I took a BFing class before the babies were born and I was completely convinced it would just naturally happen...my milk would just come in and my babies would just latch. Well, not so much....


ETA: my sisters and I were all FF and are not over weight...and we don't suffer from any allergies...and very RARELY get sick!.

ETA2: forgot to tell you guys...babies STTN!!!

Alex 7:15pm-6am. Lucas 7:15am to 7am!!! GOOOOOOOOOOO BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[steph72276]

Well, I certainly don''t think there needs to be a debate on bf here. We are all very intelligent women who obviously care very much about our little ones (hence coming on here seeking advice and sharing stories). We all know that breast milk is the best option out there, but mothers that formula feed shouldn''t feel guilty about their choice. I only made it 2 weeks with Andrew b/c of issues he was having. I made it 2 months with Evan, which is not a long time to many, but feels like a victory to me. I did the best I could nursing him for 1 hour each time, then still having to supplement with formula b/c he wasn''t satisfied as well as trying to entertain a 5 year old and run him back and forth to school. Breastfeeding is not easy by any means when the mother or baby has issues, and I have a great deal of respect for those mothers that can do it for the long haul, but it is not a choice for every mother. To keep my sanity, I made the switch to formula and I don''t regret it at all. And I agree with Tao...Andrew was FF and up until last week when he went in for a virus, he had not been in to the doctor for a sick visit for 3 years. He''s always been in the 50ths percentile for weight, is reading at age 5 and has zero allergies, so FF babies are not doomed to be overweight sickly kids.

 

[steph72276]

Date: 4/8/2010 8:42:44 AM
Author: Mandarine
Ginger, I meant to reply to one of your questions yesterday and got sidetracked!. Re: schedules...I always tried to drive my babies to eating every 3 hours around the clock during the day. By two months they were mostly doing it...but sometimes (during growth spurts) they could only go 2 hours between feeds. Not sure if that answers your question!!!. Mine have reflux, but is a mild case. I don''t recall if you have tried the formula with added rice starch? It helped my boys a LOT! (Enfamil AR)...and I don''t recall if you''re supplementing, so that may be a mute point!


Re: BM vs formula I''m 100% with TGal on this. I wish they would educate people differently. I think I almost got sucked into a depression because of BFing issues. I carried a LOT of guilt when making the decision to stop pumping. I was miserable, cried every day and started resenting the babies when they wouldn''t latch...or if they spit up the sad little 2oz I was able to pump. I was just miserable. I tried...I REALLY tried...but at the end of the day I chose to stop because I knew they deserved a happy and sane mommy. A week after making that decision, the fog lifted and I was much happier (thus babies and DH were happier too!!!).


I do think it is awesome to be able to BF successfully. I do agree that BM is best...but that''s just not always the case. It does NOT always work and moms shouldn''t have to feel guilty or like they''re not giving their babies the best just because they chose to go the formula route.


I know friends that went straight for formula. That was their decision...and you know what? what matters is that they were happy about that and they knew they would make better moms if they went that route, for WHATEVER reason. I''m happy I gave it a try, but I really wish someone would have told me how hard it was going to be. I took a BFing class before the babies were born and I was completely convinced it would just naturally happen...my milk would just come in and my babies would just latch. Well, not so much....



ETA: my sisters and I were all FF and are not over weight...and we don''t suffer from any allergies...and very RARELY get sick!.


ETA2: forgot to tell you guys...babies STTN!!!

Alex 7:15pm-6am. Lucas 7:15am to 7am!!! GOOOOOOOOOOO BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should have just said ditto to what you said, sounds like me exactly! And yea for STTN!!!!!

 

[cdt1101]

Congrats on STTN Mandarine!!! That''s GREAT!!

 

[vizsla]

that study *is* depressing. and it kills me when i watch '16 and pregnant' (guilty as charged) - i want to scream thru the tv "JUST TRY, JUST TRY!!!"

BUT, i agree wholeheartedly that, in general, there needs to be more education about feeding infants. i didn't think BF would be as hard as it was.. i had NO idea what the scope of "hard" could encompass. and i was da*n committed to BF thru all of the problems and bumps and hamburger nipples.... until i had breast surgery.. and even *then* i still tried to feed c with a gross drain coming out of my boob, and after *that* i pumped for another 1.5 months. and it still didn't work. and yes, i felt like formula was poison. and i hate that. i hate that i felt guilty.

i do wish more people would *try* BF, if just get the colostrum, but i also learned a LONG AGO not to judge parents decisions in regards to their children..because you just never know the whole story - ya just never know....

re: wet nurses - i remember having a lengthy conversation with my midwife about BF when things were in the crapper. she explained in a very matter of fact way that the reason so many children died in infancy is because they couldn't nurse. they would waste away to nothing.... you would think that after millions of years of evolution that stuff would work itself out...

OK, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

mara - yeah for j being an angel... and re: boobs... i've been done BF for about a month now and my boobs have definitely gotten smaller (at one point when i was nursing i bought a 38DD!!!) i started at a respectable 34B - right now i think i'm a 36 bigB/smallC. buuuutttt they are NOT the same boobs

they definitely have a sag about them. i think once i lose the remaining baby weight they will be back down to their original size. i do think that if i was younger they might have sprung back nicely, but.. yeah, not so much.

and i couldn't even imagine working out with nursing boobs! hooray to you ladies who do.. i leaked EVERYWHERE and they were so big and uncomfortable. although, i bet by now they would be OK... but the world will never know.

speaking of.. my fitness assessment from last week was rescheduled for today

- can you say fat calipers? yuck!

nothing new new on the c front. still up all night, still wacko with eating. we have a pedi apt to check the status of his ears tomorrow. dust they are healed!


ETA:: YIP YIP YIPPPEEE MANDY!!!!!

i let c cry for a whole 3 mins last night at one point i thought he was going to go back to sleep but, yeah.. not so much.. i'm such a softy

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Date: 4/7/2010 11:33:23 PM
Author: TravelingGal
RPS, sorry, I call BS.

Formula has its place for moms who CHOOSE not to breastfeed. Just like co-sleeping has a place for moms who CHOOSE to cosleep. Or those who CHOOSE to CIO. Or those who CHOOSE to baby led wean. Or those to CHOOSE breast feed their kids until their milk teeth fall out.

Get my drift?

You have your opinion, and I can respect your right to it. But I do think it is perfectly acceptable to say formula feeding is fine for those moms for whatever reason opt not to breastfeed. I fully agree that BFing has MANY benefits. But honestly, I find it odd that you would think it''s NOT fine to say it''s OK to use formula because ''we''re all aware of the risks of using formula'' but think it''s OK for moms to choose to have an unassisted birth. What about the risks of that?

This is simply where our opinions differ.

The main difference I see between the risks of using formula and the risks of unassisted birth is that unassisted birth isn''t adding to our health care issues. If someone has a bad outcome because she chose not to have a birth attendent, it affects her child and her family, but my insurance premiums probably aren''t going to go up. Unassisted childbirth is not that common. OTOH, in 2003, 64% of 6 months old babies weren''t receiving any breastmilk so that''s a LOT of babies that are at higher risk for many illnesses and that does have an impact on health care costs.

I really don''t want to rehash an old argument because it was obvious that people were arguing based on feelings instead of facts or experience. When person after person chimes in with how they would have died if they weren''t in the hospital, you''re dealing with firmly entrenched beliefs that you aren''t going to change.

If I said, "OMG, if my baby was fed formula, she would have DIED!!" people would flip out about that because you know, formula isn''t evil. I don''t believe that it''s evil, but I do think our society prefers not to look at the very real risks. Yeah, it''s probable your baby isn''t going to die on formula, but studies have shown that formula doubles the infant death rate.

You can''t make such a clear case against unassisted childbirth because there are no studies to show how risky it is. There are studies that show that homebirth with an attendant is as safe or safer than hospital birth for low-risk pregnancies, yet I can''t tell you how many times I''ve heard a woman say that she would never do THAT because it''s so dangerous. Except among my crunchy friends, few people seem to talk about the risks of hospital birth, but that''s what I look at.

I don''t understand why people are willing to castigate someone who would have an unassisted birth because of the risks, yet think it''s perfectly OK for people to choose to engage in another risky behavior (using formula).

 

[vizsla]

for inquiring minds.. how does formula cause infant deaths?
i guess i could just look it up too.. off to google.

RPS FWIW i do understand your side... and i try and educate myself on all sides as not to be so judgy.

however, i do think that formula has it''s place in our society.

 

[Mandarine]

So RPS...just to make sure I understand you correctly...your whole argument is because using formula may increase health care costs????

I haven''t read any studies...but I guess if we''re just talking about economy, then how about all the jobs that formula companies create...and how the formula companies estimate the economy?. I mean, if we''re really just talking about economy. But I have a feeling we''re not....

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions....but to say feeding your baby formula is a "risky behavior" I think is a bit out of line, IMO.

If we''re not talking economics and politics here...but we''re talking about moms that want to do the BEST for their babies. I don''t see how risking DEATH is comparable to feeding your baby formula so they can thrive (because of whatever reason BM is not available to them). I just don''t see how the two are comparable at all.

 

[sugarpie honeybun]

Date: 4/8/2010 9:27:23 AM
Author: Mandarine
So RPS...just to make sure I understand you correctly...your whole argument is because using formula may increase health care costs????

I haven''t read any studies...but I guess if we''re just talking about economy, then how about all the jobs that formula companies create...and how the formula companies estimate the economy?. I mean, if we''re really just talking about economy. But I have a feeling we''re not....

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions....but to say feeding your baby formula is a ''risky behavior'' I think is a bit out of line, IMO.

If we''re not talking economics and politics here...but we''re talking about moms that want to do the BEST for their babies. I don''t see how risking DEATH is comparable to feeding your baby formula so they can thrive (because of whatever reason BM is not available to them). I just don''t see how the two are comparable at all.

Agreed.

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Pandora, I totally agree with you. I worked at WIC as a breastfeeding peer counselor and it was a wonderful, but maddening experience because you never know how a woman is going to react to what you tell her. I had women that were having trouble that were grateful for my help and others that decided that I was a rabid lactivist. This seems to be the one area where you''re supposed to tell a woman what she wants to hear.

FWIW, I switched 2 of my 3 older kids to formula because that''s what was done in my circle of friends at the time. I switched my daughter at 2 months because she wasn''t gaining enough weight for the pediatrician. I know all too well what it''s like to give in to society''s expectations. I regret my choices at the time and wish that I had educated myself better and stuck with it. For women that need to use formula, I''m thankful it exists and that improvements are being made constantly.

Sha, you''re absolutely right about what those sample cans of formula from the hospital do. There was a recent study that showed that women that don''t get the free samples are 3.5 times more likely to still be exclusively breastfeeding at 2 weeks. Formula companies know that by giving these samples, they are very likely to gain repeat customers. I wish I had my one book here because it referenced a study that showed that something like 93% of women that use those hospital samples continue to use the same brand of formula. It''s really much better marketing than tv/magazine ads.

PG,

for almost making 6 months! That IS a huge accomplishment and it''s certainly not easy for many women. A celebration definitely is in order.

IMHO, our society has made breastfeeding a lot harder than it has to be. It''s a rare women that has had a lot of exposure to breastfeeding, whether through family or friends. Help isn''t always readily available. Support definitely isn''t easy to find. I think way back when, there were women that had problems, but it was less prevalent because they had mothers/grandmothers/friends with experience to help out.

Our lives in general are far busier, too, so being the only one who can feed the baby is difficult. I know so many women that are trying to juggle a baby with a job, other kids, and other commitments. It''s no wonder that they have problems! It''s as if we just aren''t allowed to take the time to nurse our babies, and that''s a shame for us and for society as a whole.

As for wetnursing, I think it''s kind of an awesome thing! We''re talking about babies that would have died otherwise, so even though it may be an odd idea for some, you have to wonder how many of us wouldn''t be here if it weren''t for a wetnurse. I would nurse another woman''s baby without a second thought (but only with her permission, of course!).

 

[vizsla]

i just wikipedia''d it (an interesting read on infant formula).. it basically says that some studies have shown a correlation between ff babies and increased health problems, which can cause death.

it doesn''t differentiate between socio-economical classes OR if you have a baby with a predisposition for certain health risks. nor does it change its findings if you have the means to provide health care for a baby with a medical condition.

 

[Pandora II]

Just wanted to clarify... I was not saying that formula makes babies overweight. However it is much easier to 'overfeed' a baby that is not breast-fed, which is why I said that I thought there should be more information in the UK about formula feeding as it isn't discussed at all here - free samples of formula are banned in hospitals in the UK. The two people I mentioned both overfeed their kids.

I don't think that it gives kids allergies or makes them ill or anything of that sort - but I do think that breastfeeding can have a preventative effect.

For example, I don't have allergies and probably wouldn't do whether I'd been FF or BF because I don't have a genetic predisposition - no-one in my family has allergies. DH has terrible allergies and compromised immunity - he was FF (and I use the word 'formula' here in a very loose sense as he seems to have been fed some very odd choices as a baby looking at his mother's diary) and it's possible that he would have been less allergic had he been BF. Since D probably has DH's genetic predisposition to allergies and is exposed to many more illnesses due to his lack of immunity, it maybe that she hasn't developed allergies, had a cold or been ill more than once because she is BF... or she may just have my genes... who knows

Anyway, I say all this as my daughter sits on the floor with a can of ginger beer...

 

[E B]

Breastfeeding vs. formula feeding, like circumcision, is an emotionally charged issue. As a formula fed child who breastfeeds her baby, I can understand both sides of the debate.

I think most of us can agree on a few points:

1) Breast milk is best, but formula feeding is a perfectly acceptable alternative
2) Pregnant women need more information about feeding AND support during the first days of baby's life
3) There's plenty of misinformation about both breastfeeding and formula. It's important to, if possible, educate yourself about both before making a decision.

Date: 4/8/2010 9:53:59 AM
Author: rockpaperscissors67

IMHO, our society has made breastfeeding a lot harder than it has to be. It's a rare women that has had a lot of exposure to breastfeeding, whether through family or friends. Help isn't always readily available. Support definitely isn't easy to find. I think way back when, there were women that had problems, but it was less prevalent because they had mothers/grandmothers/friends with experience to help out.

Our lives in general are far busier, too, so being the only one who can feed the baby is difficult. I know so many women that are trying to juggle a baby with a job, other kids, and other commitments. It's no wonder that they have problems! It's as if we just aren't allowed to take the time to nurse our babies, and that's a shame for us and for society as a whole.

I agree with this. Support is KEY, especially during the first few days. Many problems can be fixed if you're helped by someone who truly knows what s/he's doing.

I didn't have many issues with breastfeeding. Henry had a good latch, my milk came in on day 3, and I had a lot of it...but I had my MIL as a constant means of support for the first three weeks of his life. In the hospital, she brought Henry to me regularly to help my milk come in. When we had to supplement with formula for the first two days of his life, she made sure we used an SNS so he'd be familiar with MY nipple, not a plastic nipple. The first few weeks home with Henry, I questioned everything, from the initial pain to my issues with OAL (overactive letdown), to the amount of time he was on the breast (constantly). Each time, she assured me that what was happening was normal, that he was helping me establish my supply, and that I'd experience sunshine after the rain, so to speak. And we did. I'm SO grateful to her for her support, and I wish every new mother could receive the same.

 

[Mara]

Sha..rice is def easier on the tummy but I think I read someone on here going straight to oatmeal instead of rice? Anyway, you could try a day/night of oatmeal and see if it makes a diff with her and/or if she has any stomach issues from it. Or keep with rice for a bit longer to make sure her digestion is used to something more then try oatmeal. But just like for us with fiber... it keeps you fuller longer.

Oh random PSA too but my friend was telling me she just started giving her 3 month old rice cereal and she noticed that the Gerber one a fair amt of additives and SOY and her daughter is allergic to soy. Anyway, she went and got Earth's Best and it just has rice, iron and one more ingredient. We are using Gerber for J's nighttime supplement but I am going to try to find EB since I'd much rather feed him something with 3 ingredients than 10+.

burk lol re: us walking around with no bra. it actually does feel better with a bra sometimes BUT i hate that constricted feeling ...ugh! i tend to wear stretchy tank tops that give me some support but don't constrict my breathing and stuff. i am really weird about that though.

viz... working out with these boobs SUCKS. sometimes i actually HOLD THEM in class when i am jumping up and down doing something. really not fun...i can't imagine how women with DD's all the time do strenuous exercise or things like running. owie.

re: BF vs FF... as I sit here with giganto nipple flanges on (btw I think I figured out that my nipples need the largest shields, dreamer I thought you were exaggerating re: 6 inches, NOT SO MUCH!) finishing my morning pump. i do wish more people would 'try harder' to BF because there are benefits to breast milk. what does try harder mean, well it's subjective and i do think a lot of people aren't prepared for it and give up right away. and yes support is crucial but not everyone has it...which is really unfortunate. but hey, i also don't think ANYONE should feel guilty. food is FOOD. a ton of kids are FF (again i was, my sisters were, AND my mom and uncles all were), and they are not destined to be overweight, sickly, disiniterested, dumb children. as viz said there might be genetic disposition or socio-economic statuses that factor in.

as almost with anything i feel like you can get research or do a study to support whatever your line of thinking is. especially on the internet. and lol to whoever said how did the cave women do it, GOOD POINT!!! i am sure they didn't have a lazy sucker latched on for 40 min each time. and that is how long my lazy sucker would take if i actually tried to feed him a FULL MEAL each time. and i refuse to have him attached to me all friggin day long snacking because he can't pay attn long enough to get a meal in.

speaking of meals.. i added J back onto the boob for a short feed yesterday afternoon (i say short because he was passing out to sleep) and my supply seems to be better or maybe it's these new flanges? hard to tell anyway i will try to at least put him on for some stim during the afternoons while i am home and see if i can keep my supply at least at it's original level. i went the 10 hours last nite between pumps though, finally my boobs are used to it and i don't wake up horribly engorged, and i still got 6.5oz this morning pumping so yay. if i can do my 2x a day pump to get 6-7oz each time i would be a happy camper. esp since i am still trying to freeze for our hawaii trip.

Greg's dad and stepmom are coming tomorrow for a wkd visit, first time to see J. we are excited and i know they are too...plus J is more into his routine and he is a happier baby now than when G's mom visited and we were figuring out his reflux etc PLUS weather is great so it should be a good visit.

oh and random note re: the healthcare costs of FF. if hospitals/govmt moved towards exclusive BF'ing there would need to be a lot more support and education than there is today. people can talk about the costs of FF on national healthcare but i wonder if someone actually did a cost comparison on all the staff and materials that would need to be produced and maintained for people to successfully BF if it would really be any type of huge savings?? i don't think so. don't you think the formula companies GIVE a lot of their product to hospitals exactly for the reasons RPS stated. brand loyalty is huge when they send you home with free formula. we still use similac for J even though we moved to 'sensitive' for his tummy. so all those costs to hospitals or to taxpayers may not be as high as people would expect.

and for the cost of formula for PARENTS vs bf'ing, well that's another matter...but not a national one.

 

[Pandora II]

Oooh yes... cave people...

In many ''primative'' cultures, and even many countries today, the new mother would be expected to spend the first 40 days just feeding and looking after the baby. After that she would rejoin ''society'' - the baby would be worn on her and able to feed at will while she went about her day.

I would think that the ''Continuum Concept'' would have some good information on what probably happened in the days when DH was off buying Mammoth Burgers.

 

[anchor31]

RPS - I''ve greatly appreciated your advice on BFing, but now I think you are way out of line. Formula saved my life as an infant, and I''m not the only one. I would never consider FFing as risky behaviour when the alternative is certain death. Heck, I wouldn''t consider FFing as risky behaviour when the alternative is a mom so sleep deprived she will sink into PPD. The only reason I will not be switching to formula at 4 months once no more sterilization is needed is because I don''t consider that I have a valid reason to.Think it as selfish a you want, but we do have to think about ourselves at some point, and there are enough people watching us and judging us and blaming every and any issue our kids might have on us, we don''t need our own peers guilt-tripping us for deciding to switch to formula because we believe that according to our circumstances, this is the best option. As for the economic, insurance premium argument, just like for the free birth thing, it gets a huge

from me.

RE: BFing statistics and hospital practices - Supplementing is not talked about in prenatal classes or in the hospital here. They really, really want you to BF, the problem is the information they give is insufficient. They want you to believe it''s easy, painfree and all that. As a result, in Canada mothers who attempted BFing rose from 25% in the mid-1960s to 83% in 2003, yet only 17% of women EBF 6 months or more. (source: statistics Canada) Also, as soon as I got pregnant, I started receiving formula samples in the mail, so I suppose it encourages the switch for many women.

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Viz, you can read this and this. I absolutely believe that formula has its place and have never said differently.

Mandarine, the only argument I will make here is the economic one. What one person chooses to feed her child generally has little impact on me or my life. Yes, I do wish that more babies were breastfed so that both mom and baby could reap the benefits, but realistically, other people''s choices are not going to make a difference to me, except when it comes to a large number of people using a product that contributes to higher health care costs.

Really, I don''t think the number of jobs that formula companies create should be a consideration here. McDonald''s employs almost half a million people but would anyone argue that their food is beneficial to our society?

I''m not quite sure why calling formula feeding risky behavior is out of line. Is there anyone here that believes that there are no risks associated with using formula? Heck, I did it with my 3 older kids. The fact is that my choice put them at risk for certain illnesses and I accept this, but I also wish that someone at the time had been willing to tell me straight up that I was opting for a feeding method that comes with risks.

There are some situations where forumla is the only good choice, regardless of the risks, and I really do understand those. In your case, for example, I can''t even being to imagine trying to exclusively breastfeed twins. Actually, I can''t imagine trying to feed twins in ANY way because it seems like it''s a major juggling act. If you look at how many women with singletons run into problems and then multiply that by two, it''s a daunting task to say the least. The babies have to be fed somehow, obviously, so formula is a good choice. The risks are still there, but when you compare those risks against not feeding the boys, well, which choice is better?

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Date: 4/8/2010 10:47:58 AM
Author: anchor31
RPS - I''ve greatly appreciated your advice on BFing, but now I think you are way out of line. Formula saved my life as an infant, and I''m not the only one. I would never consider FFing as risky behaviour when the alternative is certain death. Heck, I wouldn''t consider FFing as risky behaviour when the alternative is a mom so sleep deprived she will sink into PPD. The only reason I will not be switching to formula at 4 months once no more sterilization is needed is because I don''t consider that I have a valid reason to.Think it as selfish a you want, but we do have to think about ourselves at some point, and there are enough people watching us and judging us and blaming every and any issue our kids might have on us, we don''t need our own peers guilt-tripping us for deciding to switch to formula because we believe that according to our circumstances, this is the best option. As for the economic, insurance premium argument, just like for the free birth thing, it gets a huge

from me.

RE: BFing statistics and hospital practices - Supplementing is not talked about in prenatal classes or in the hospital here. They really, really want you to BF, the problem is the information they give is insufficient. They want you to believe it''s easy, painfree and all that. As a result, in Canada mothers who attempted BFing rose from 25% in the mid-1960s to 83% in 2003, yet only 17% of women EBF 6 months or more. (source: statistics Canada) Also, as soon as I got pregnant, I started receiving formula samples in the mail, so I suppose it encourages the switch for many women.

Anchor, please see my prior post to Mandarine. I''m glad that formula saved your life and that is why it''s GREAT that it exists. I would never say differently. I have never said that it doesn''t have it''s place or that it should be outlawed or available only by prescription.

When you compare using formula to certain death because you''re not feeding a baby anything, of course formula is the choice. That should go without saying. It doesn''t negate the risks to formula, though. It just means that formula is LESS risky than not feeding the baby. Does that make sense?

It''s the same thing, I guess, with a mom who is at risk for developing PPD due to lack of sleep. Which is riskier? Of course, in this situation, I would suggest that the mom learn how to nurse lying down so she can get some rest because breastfeeding is associated with lower incidents of PPD.

I *don''t* think that choosing formula is selfish in most cases, so please don''t assume that''s what I think. When I chose to do it, it was an uneducated decision on my part. I think it''s safe to assume that if I made an uneducated choice, there are other women out there that have done the same. Other women make the choice because they feel for one reason or another, it''s the best choice for them and their family. And there are also plenty of women who don''t have a choice in the matter at all.

 

[vizsla]

OHHH mara - don't i know it!
i get "soy" mad about all of the added soy in soooooo many products - it's REDIC!
c has MSPI so i had to be crazy about what i ate - the EB was the ONLY cereal that didn't have added soy - well, that and uncle ben's. WTH??

NO NEED for soy+. i've become quite the mad woman when it comes to reading labels. i was actually pissed off when i picked up the gerber rice cereal .. which you would *think* would just be rice, but it has all this other crap in it.

bleh.. makes me so mad...

 

[fieryred33143]

RPS, I too am grateful that you are part of our community because you provide so much education and support on bfing. I remember you answering a lot of my bfing questions while you were pregnant and am grateful for it. Are you a LC? I keep thinking that you are for some reason.

I think that the issue with saying formula is risky is that it implies that mothers are choosing to put their babies in a risky position or are choosing to put them in harms way. Even moms who chose to formula feed from day one do not do so with the mentality that they would chose convenience over the safety of their baby. The fact is that formula IS food. It is not better than breast milk from a health perspective but it is still food.

And while I’m well aware of how large corporations work because I work in one myself, I also think that credit should be given to the formula industry in addressing the growing needs of babies by adding vitamins, iron, calcium, and other ingredients to ensure that formula is not only food but nutritional food.

On the overfeeding issue: I don’t think that overfeeding babies on formula is an issue with the formula itself. It’s an issue with the person feeding the baby. Bottle feeding should be its own mini-course when taking classes. I think people that haven’t gone through bfing don’t ever realize a baby’s desire to suck so when they’re sucking on the nipple of the bottle, they assume it’s because they want more food. This was something I had to tell MIL constantly. When Sophia was getting pumped milk, she’d want to suck on the nipple after and MIL would call me freaking out that Sophia was still hungry. She’s not hungry…she wants to suck. If I had not learned that during my bfing courses, it would have made sense for me to tell her to give her an ounce or two more. I don’t know why that isn’t part of infant feeding courses.

 

[Mara]

oh fiery i totally agree re formula being so much better now. i think about what i was fed and who knows what was in it. MAYBE less preservatives but probably also less actual nutrients and who knows about vitamins. my mom did say we were constipated a lot thats why they gave us water!

and i also agree re bottle feeding... overfeeding, etc, it all has to do with the parent at first. re: the sucking... it is super frustrating for me that everyone in general just assumes if your kid is sucking something that he is hungry. yesterday i took J to work and one of the ladies, a MOM of a 3 year old AND who is PREGNANT and about to have a csec in a week for her 2nd... sees J sucking his hand and goes ''is he hungry?''...(twice...she asked again when i didnt answer the first time). i was like no just wants to suck! HELLO don''t you know this?? plus it''s always implied that somehow i am not feeding him enough. trust me if he''s hungry he will cry, not be staring quietly at you sucking his hand.

viz...re: the soy, i don''t know why the Gerber having all that stuff in it didn''t really bother me til my friend said something about it. then i was like HEY yeah you are right. JEEZ. i wouldn''t even have thought to look for a more natural rice product, Gerber is the only brand i know! but i am def going to find me some earth''s best. i wonder if they do a formula too.

and ummm i am sitting here waiting for my little crazy sleeper to get up. he went down last nite at 9pm and he is still asleep! i had to check on him 30 min ago to make sure he was ok...yup. worked himself into a funny position near the bottom of his bassinet but sound asleep. i am glad he is starting to sleep through more house activity, aka G getting ready at 6am and the sprinklers going off near his window at 7am etc because our house is way too small to be quiet all the time.

 

[Mandarine]

RPS...

Having twins certainly played a fact, but I think I could have had the same experience if I had a singleton. Unfortunately, I didn''t have good LC support at the hospital. I did end up going to two LC within days of the babies being born, but I think at that point a lot of things had already gone wrong. So I do agree that support is key. However, the two LCs I saw were still not able to get us where we wanted and they made me feel guilty. The fact that my boys were pre-term and one dropping to 4lbs plays a BIG factor in making these decisions. Nobody should be made to feel guilty when they feel they are doing the best for their baby(ies)

The reason I think (and stand behind) that saying that it is out of line to say that FF is a risky behavior is because I believe every mother that chooses to FF, does it because that''s the best decision for THEM and their babies. For whatever reason....and they should not feel guilty.

 

[Mandarine]

I have to check the Gerber Oatmeal! I assumed it only had Oatmeal!

 

[fieryred33143]

OMG Mara so funny you say the thing about sucking hands! My former Director just came in with her 2 month old and the first thing she said was that while showing the baby to (Coworker) baby was sucking on her hands and (Coworker) thought she was hungry. We both went

haha!

Speaking of...

Someone please tell my uterus that just because I held a tiny, beautiful, delicious baby that DOES NOT mean it''s time for another

My shoulder still smells like her

 

[janinegirly]

Haven't read alll of this thread closely but hope you don't mind me chiming in on the FF debate. I won't go into exhaustive details but my big issue is how ridiculous and unfair it is of anyone (moms, family, media, studies) to try to directly or indirectly make FF moms feel guilty. I know the bulletpoints of the recent study, and my take away from it is it is suggesting increased education for mothers who may not be aware of the benefits.

But most of us and most people we know are well aware of the benefits and did not make a choice out of convenience, selfishness or lack of education--the choice was made because it was the best one, and in some cases the only one. Having said that, I also happen to believe that the magicial benefits of breastfeeding are exaggerated, certainly based on my own experience. Of course it's the preferred choice because it is the most natural option, but formula babies are not worse off assuming all else is equal when comparing with a bf baby. I have yet to see any real proof of increased intelligence and in terms of increased immunity-that one is not a slam dunk either. In fact a recent study claimed that immunity is actually more likely to be determined in utereo in last stages of pregnancy (i.e. mother's immunity a bigger factor)! So you can always find a study to suit your opnion.

I can say from experience (non scientific) that I know many bf babies who are overweight with lots of unfortunate allergies and ailments. My own little girl is as petite as can be and she chugged alot of formula. And thank god for that since she's steadily been in the 25% for weight (but 75% for head!)! She also has not yet been sick (now 18mo's) and not one allergy. She barely spat up from birth on--it's almost ridiculous! So to me genetics, predisposition, exposure to daycare have much more solid links to immunity and how often the child is sick.

Thanks for letting me chime in..I'll go back to my proper thread now

 

[TravelingGal]

RPS, do you vaccinate your kids? ON schedule?

Because if not, I could make the same argument that if your kids get sick, it economically affects me (not to mention the societal implications).

IMHO, we''re starting to make it too hard for women who want to make a choice to make it without guilt when it comes to switching to formula. Lactivists tell you your baby will get fat, get sick and will not be able to bond as well if you don''t breast feed. As Pandora said, fat babies don''t come from formula...it comes from OVERFEEDING. The 2 biggest babies I know were EBF, and even that probably had something to do with genetics too.

I am not saying breast is isn''t best. But even the Breast is Best slogan works against moms because what mom doesn''t want to give her child the best? I think BFing classes need to emphasize that formula feeding is a fine alternative. I''m fine with classes talking about the benefits of breastfeeding. But what they need to say is that for whatever reason, if you want to formula feed, don''t feel bad. Your child will be fine. I mean, doesn''t it affect my premiums when guilt ridden, depressed moms go and seek mental/emotional help?

I think I''m one of the few here who never had milk come in. Apparently that is rare. When I pumped, I could not measure by ounces, I had to measure in ccs. 30ccs = 1oz and on most days I pumped 5-10ccs. That''s right, usually only one third of an oz AT BEST (the most I ever pumped was 1.5-2 ounces I think on a full morning - I usually saved every little bit so I could give her a bottle once a day or so of mostly breastmilk). The lactation consultant (because I went to breast feeding support classes every week until Amelia was about 2 months) said in her many years of doing it, she had only seen about 2 or 3 people who didn''t have any milk, and I was one of them. And yet, she still did not encourage me to just go full formula. She told me my baby needed the antibodies and that I needed to mix in my BM with formula. Don''t get me wrong, she was nice and encouraging, and I went along with it because apparently my BM held magic that would keep all cooties away, even though it was only DROPS. Oh, and that 10-15ccs I pumped? That was only once a day...the rest of the time I pumped, I couldn''t get much more than wetting the bottom of the container. And yet I was happy because I doubled/tripled my initial production, but that was initially about 2-5 ccs! I was scared to spill a drop.

She got me on mothers milk tea, fenugreek, told me to get a prescription for reglan...all things I did, and still nothing. She told me that my baby was probably getting more at my breast, but when we weighed her, it was more, but still not much. I pumped like a cow, was exhausted and began to feel really blue about the whole thing. And TGuy, who was also told Breast is Best cheered every cc that came out of my body, when honestly he should have looked at the pathetic amounts and just encouraged us to switch. But the other LC gave him all the reasons why breast was best at the hospital, I think, so he was completely sold.

I think some of the moms here at the time probably thought I should give up but were being nice about it. I was literally wringing milk from my boobs in the hopes of giving her something. Obviously, for people like me, formula does have a "place" but I really think that had the LCs took into account my frustration and exhaustion, they could have saved me weeks of mental stress by saying, "honey, you did great, but formula is FINE and your child will be fine." But to her, formula had a "place" and I was not in that place, because I was still producing SOMETHING.

So yes, I personally think it is fine to tell a woman that formula is fine. I think it''s great to educate women on the wonders of breastmilk...if I didn''t believe it in, I wouldn''t have tried for two months with practically nothing. But running around here making arguments, and lame economic ones at that, that it is not OK to tell women formula feeding is fine isn''t something that sits well with me.

But of course, as always, we can agree to disagree.