PS Mommy Thread-Newborn to 12 months!

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/8/2010 2:59:10 PM
Author: cdt1101

Date: 4/8/2010 1:49:39 PM
Author: NovemberBride
These posts on BF vs. FF are so timely for me. I intended to EBF for a year and I really did not want to supplement with formula. However, I went back to work at 12 weeks and since then my supply has slowly dropped to the point where pumping 3 times a day at work for 20 min. each was only yielding me 7-10 oz per day, and Olivia was eating 12-15 at daycare each day. Since I can''t really devote more time than that to pumping - I do have to work, which involves attending meetings without flanges stuck to my chest, I decided to supplement with formula. I felt guilty about it, but I knew I needed to do it. FWIW, I tried fenugreek (made both baby and me super-gassy). I looked into Reglan, but that stuff has some nasty side effects (and that''s coming from someone who worked for the pharmaceutical industry and is generally pro-pharmaceuticals). My guilt was made worse by the fact that Olivia has a milk protein allergy and developed a terrible rash and projectile vomited up every bottle of formula. We have now solved that problem by using a hypoallergenic problem, but I do feel guilty because I know she didn''t have the problem with bf''ing.

I''ll admit that I do judge moms who don''t even try to breastfeed for superficial reasons like not wanting their boobs to sag - I do believe breast is best and if you can do it, why wouldn''t you? If you tried and couldn''t or couldn''t keep up it is a different story in my opinion (just my opinion, not saying it is right or wrong). I think it is nearly impossible to be a working mom in the US and EBF for a year. I don''t know anyone who has done it - most women''s supply dwindles with pumping and even if it doesn''t dwindle, pumping is awful and finding the time to do it at work is next to impossible.

Not sure if you really wanted an answer here, but I''ll bite....I CHOSE not to because eventhough I could have really tried and certainly am aware of its benefits, it just wasn''t something I could see myself committing to. I just didn''t see BFing fitting into my lifestyle. If that makes me selfish/stupid/bad mommy/whatever...than so be it. It''s my choice, my son, my decision. And frankly (and this is not directed at you specifically) I''m OVER the mommy guilt thing and people who attempt to play on a mother''s sensitivities to make them feel bad. I *know* I''m a great mom and love my son more than anything (and more than I ever could have imagined). Not BFing doesn''t negate that.

It''s been said so many times here, but still I just don''t get why woman have to be so judgemental towards each other??? I REALLY don''t understand it

You''re smarter than I am, cdt. Now I''m sitting here with wrung out flapjack tits that never produced any real grub. Oh, and I didn''t get the calorie burning benefits either, so I''ve flapjacks on a tub-o-lard body.

(But I do think saggy boobs come with pregnancy, not BFing, if I am not mistaken...)

 

[E B]

Date: 4/8/2010 2:52:10 PM
Author: Sha
MARA- thanks for the info on rice/oatmeal. I have the GErber boxes too...didn''t realize they had in soy and additives. Hmmmm.... I don''t think we have that EB brand where I''m from, so I may just wait on the solids. Still thinking about it, though.

Sha, are you able to order from Amazon.com? They carry Earth''s Best products. We love EB over here. Henry''s particularly fond of their breakfast options, like peaches/banana/oatmeal.

Earth''s Best Rice Cereal

 

[cdt1101]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:04:18 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 4/8/2010 2:59:10 PM
Author: cdt1101

Date: 4/8/2010 1:49:39 PM
Author: NovemberBride
These posts on BF vs. FF are so timely for me. I intended to EBF for a year and I really did not want to supplement with formula. However, I went back to work at 12 weeks and since then my supply has slowly dropped to the point where pumping 3 times a day at work for 20 min. each was only yielding me 7-10 oz per day, and Olivia was eating 12-15 at daycare each day. Since I can''t really devote more time than that to pumping - I do have to work, which involves attending meetings without flanges stuck to my chest, I decided to supplement with formula. I felt guilty about it, but I knew I needed to do it. FWIW, I tried fenugreek (made both baby and me super-gassy). I looked into Reglan, but that stuff has some nasty side effects (and that''s coming from someone who worked for the pharmaceutical industry and is generally pro-pharmaceuticals). My guilt was made worse by the fact that Olivia has a milk protein allergy and developed a terrible rash and projectile vomited up every bottle of formula. We have now solved that problem by using a hypoallergenic problem, but I do feel guilty because I know she didn''t have the problem with bf''ing.

I''ll admit that I do judge moms who don''t even try to breastfeed for superficial reasons like not wanting their boobs to sag - I do believe breast is best and if you can do it, why wouldn''t you? If you tried and couldn''t or couldn''t keep up it is a different story in my opinion (just my opinion, not saying it is right or wrong). I think it is nearly impossible to be a working mom in the US and EBF for a year. I don''t know anyone who has done it - most women''s supply dwindles with pumping and even if it doesn''t dwindle, pumping is awful and finding the time to do it at work is next to impossible.

Not sure if you really wanted an answer here, but I''ll bite....I CHOSE not to because eventhough I could have really tried and certainly am aware of its benefits, it just wasn''t something I could see myself committing to. I just didn''t see BFing fitting into my lifestyle. If that makes me selfish/stupid/bad mommy/whatever...than so be it. It''s my choice, my son, my decision. And frankly (and this is not directed at you specifically) I''m OVER the mommy guilt thing and people who attempt to play on a mother''s sensitivities to make them feel bad. I *know* I''m a great mom and love my son more than anything (and more than I ever could have imagined). Not BFing doesn''t negate that.

It''s been said so many times here, but still I just don''t get why woman have to be so judgemental towards each other??? I REALLY don''t understand it

You''re smarter than I am, cdt. Now I''m sitting here with wrung out flapjack tits that never produced any real grub. Oh, and I didn''t get the calorie burning benefits either, so I''ve flapjacks on a tub-o-lard body.

(But I do think saggy boobs come with pregnancy, not BFing, if I am not mistaken...)

LOL...my boobs are slightly saggier after pregnancy too, so I know it''s not related to BFing

I really admire you (and every other woman who stuggles) because I know I would have lost my mind going thru all of the struggles that go along w/ BFing.

 

[Mandarine]

well...I had some sagginess even before pregnancy due to major weight gain in college! hehe.

I have more to add but honestly, you guys just say it better than me so I'll just keep reading, CDT, you ARE a great mom!!!

***

Mommy confession (a day early)....

For the baptism this weekend, I filled little cute jars with M&Ms as favors (us crazy venezuelans do favors in baptisms). Anyway...I filled them to the top...and let's just say they are not topped off to the max anymore. I keep taking a few here and a few there. Thank God the baptism is Saturday because people would get empty jars if this keeps going!.

I could always say that the idea WAS to just give them two M&Ms to represent the two kiddos...lol.

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Mandarine, you hit on two of my major pet peeves. First, why didn''t you have good support at the hospital? This isn''t a question you can really answer -- it''s targeted at the hospital itself. Why isn''t there more support overall? And why are there so many crappy LCs out there? How are breastfeeding rates supposed to improve when women have experiences like you did?? All retorical questions, of course.

The second pet peeve is GUILT. OMG, the guilt that mothers feel is amazing. There''s a point at which you (the general you) just have to let it go. You tried hard but had to go in a different direction. The boys are certainly growing and healthy and wonderful, right? As they grow up, it will be impossible to tell if any health issues they run into are a result of them having formula. My 3 year old has never needed antibiotics, but is this because he was bf or because he naturally has a good immune system or because he got lucky? I have no idea and wouldn''t be comfortable claiming any of those things.

I''m no stranger to the guilt, either, but it hit me 16 years after switching my daughter to formula. With the boys, I did it just because, no good reason at all. My daughter, OTOH, wasn''t gaining weight like her pediatrician wanted so the doc told me to start supplimenting and I didn''t know how to do it without killing my supply. Within a month, DD was solely on formula. Then she developed severe reflux, bad enough to nearly land her in the hospital. We got through all that, so fast forward to several weeks ago. Kiddo fell off her horse and fractured her pelvis. I''m absolutely convinced that if DD hadn''t been on formula, her reflux wouldn''t have been so bad. If her reflux hadn''t been so bad, DD might have liked to drink milk. If she had liked to drink milk, perhaps her pelvis would have been strong enough to resist that fracture.

The guilt doesn''t do anyone any good, which is why I say let it go.

TGal, I vaccinate my kids *mostly* on schedule. I do some delaying/staggering because I have a huge problem giving a 1 month old 5 different shots, but yeah, all of my kids with the except of Ben have had all of their shots. I worry about the safety of the shots, but I worry more about not having them.

I agree that if people are saying that your baby is going to get fat, sick and not bond with you when he''s on formula, of course people will be turned off. It''s not fair to say those things because I''ve yet to meet anyone that could predict the future. Your baby MIGHT get fat/sick/not have a bond (although I don''t believe this one at all) on formula. Breastfeeding is NOT a magical substance that protects your child from everything. It''s possible to have a breastfed baby be sickly and it''s possible to have a formula fed baby be absolutely healthy.

I honestly don''t know how a class could address this issue so it suits everyone. Like I said up above, the guilt has got to go.

I am sorry that you had such an experience. It''s one thing IMHO if you choose to use formula, but an entirely different thing if you are forced to because your choice was taken away from you. I hope you know that all of that hard work you did wasn''t for nothing -- children benefit from time at the breast even when they aren''t getting fed. I know if I were the LC, I would have had a hard time telling you to throw in the towel because who knows how a mom is going to feel after that? It''s a guessing game to try to figure out if the mom is going to be more upset with continuing to try to breastfeed or if she quits. And what if you say that baby is going to be fine on formula and he turns out to be one of those that needs the super expensive hypoallergenic formulas or has repeated ear infections?

I guess it all comes down to my problem with putting things in concrete terms since no one can know for sure what the outcome is going to be.

Cara, I agree with what you''ve posted. I don''t know how you have this conversation without there being issues. One thing that I''ve noticed is that people tend to say "make me/them feel guilty" and this bothers me because people aren''t owning their feelings. When I was in counseling to deal with issues with my former marriage, I told the shrink, "He makes me so mad!" The shrink pointed out that my ex didn''t *make* me do anything -- I got mad at him for the things he did, but saying he made me mad gave him far more power than he had. So anyhow, I think if anyone feels guilty they really need to examine those feelings and see what they can do with them. It may not even be guilt that they''re feeling, but something else such as regret.


===========

On a completely different subject, I realized that today and tomorrow are the last days that Ben will be home with me since he starts at the babysitter on Monday. Then I leave Monday night and don''t come back until Wednesday night. I know that he''s not going to forget me, but I do worry about what effect this will have on him.

I love my job, but there are some days when I totally wish I was a SAHM, even if I suck at it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think it is interesting to me how people who chose not to BF see it as some excercise in endurance full of struggles... after the first 3 weeks it was easy peasy for me. But then I look at formula feeding and cleaning bottles and the cost and the smelly poops and thing that seems like way more hassel! LOL!

***

Each parent makes different choices. Lets be honest here -- a child''s outcomes are multiply determined. So I BF my baby, great, he will benefit from that, and CDT''s baby will not. But I am betting you good money that I will do something else that will harm Hunter compared to what cdt does for her son. MULTIPLY DETERMINED outcomes have so many variables that if you obsess over any single one you will go mental. And know what is a really big risk factor for kids? A mental mom

. If BFing makes you stressed and crazy then using formula is better for your kid when you take into account all the predictors.

And besides all of this, you want to know what is a far bigger predictor of our kids outcomes than BFing?? Our income levels and education. Ok, so TGal and cdt and janiengirly did not BF and EB and me and Pandora did... I bet you good money that all our kids will end up with similar dang outcomes because we seem to all have similar socio-economic statuses (stati?).

Yup, research shows that BF is best for babies. But we all want what is best for our babies. Lets all pat ourselves on the backs for that and stop beating ourselves up about some decision we made and the small chance it will negatively affect our kids compared to all the other good things we do for them.

Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

 

[janinegirly]

RPS: but surely you also agree that adding to existing mommy guilt is also unhelpful. IE saying a choice many moms made (for all the valid reasons people took time to describe) is "risky behavior" is not going to help anyone "let go of the guilt". Just sayin'. My issue is you stated something which caused people to dig up old feelings of guilt and feel the need to jsutify why they made their choice. So maybe you should also own your own choice of words and acknowledge the reaction it caused.

 

[cdt1101]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:17:56 PM
Author: rockpaperscissors67
Mandarine, you hit on two of my major pet peeves. First, why didn't you have good support at the hospital? This isn't a question you can really answer -- it's targeted at the hospital itself. Why isn't there more support overall? And why are there so many crappy LCs out there? How are breastfeeding rates supposed to improve when women have experiences like you did?? All retorical questions, of course.

The second pet peeve is GUILT. OMG, the guilt that mothers feel is amazing. There's a point at which you (the general you) just have to let it go. You tried hard but had to go in a different direction. The boys are certainly growing and healthy and wonderful, right? As they grow up, it will be impossible to tell if any health issues they run into are a result of them having formula. My 3 year old has never needed antibiotics, but is this because he was bf or because he naturally has a good immune system or because he got lucky? I have no idea and wouldn't be comfortable claiming any of those things.

I'm no stranger to the guilt, either, but it hit me 16 years after switching my daughter to formula. With the boys, I did it just because, no good reason at all. My daughter, OTOH, wasn't gaining weight like her pediatrician wanted so the doc told me to start supplimenting and I didn't know how to do it without killing my supply. Within a month, DD was solely on formula. Then she developed severe reflux, bad enough to nearly land her in the hospital. We got through all that, so fast forward to several weeks ago. Kiddo fell off her horse and fractured her pelvis. I'm absolutely convinced that if DD hadn't been on formula, her reflux wouldn't have been so bad. If her reflux hadn't been so bad, DD might have liked to drink milk. If she had liked to drink milk, perhaps her pelvis would have been strong enough to resist that fracture.

The guilt doesn't do anyone any good, which is why I say let it go.

TGal, I vaccinate my kids *mostly* on schedule. I do some delaying/staggering because I have a huge problem giving a 1 month old 5 different shots, but yeah, all of my kids with the except of Ben have had all of their shots. I worry about the safety of the shots, but I worry more about not having them.

I agree that if people are saying that your baby is going to get fat, sick and not bond with you when he's on formula, of course people will be turned off. It's not fair to say those things because I've yet to meet anyone that could predict the future. Your baby MIGHT get fat/sick/not have a bond (although I don't believe this one at all) on formula. Breastfeeding is NOT a magical substance that protects your child from everything. It's possible to have a breastfed baby be sickly and it's possible to have a formula fed baby be absolutely healthy.

I honestly don't know how a class could address this issue so it suits everyone. Like I said up above, the guilt has got to go.

I am sorry that you had such an experience. It's one thing IMHO if you choose to use formula, but an entirely different thing if you are forced to because your choice was taken away from you. I hope you know that all of that hard work you did wasn't for nothing -- children benefit from time at the breast even when they aren't getting fed. I know if I were the LC, I would have had a hard time telling you to throw in the towel because who knows how a mom is going to feel after that? It's a guessing game to try to figure out if the mom is going to be more upset with continuing to try to breastfeed or if she quits. And what if you say that baby is going to be fine on formula and he turns out to be one of those that needs the super expensive hypoallergenic formulas or has repeated ear infections?

I guess it all comes down to my problem with putting things in concrete terms since no one can know for sure what the outcome is going to be.

Cara, I agree with what you've posted. I don't know how you have this conversation without there being issues. One thing that I've noticed is that people tend to say 'make me/them feel guilty' and this bothers me because people aren't owning their feelings. When I was in counseling to deal with issues with my former marriage, I told the shrink, 'He makes me so mad!' The shrink pointed out that my ex didn't *make* me do anything -- I got mad at him for the things he did, but saying he made me mad gave him far more power than he had. So anyhow, I think if anyone feels guilty they really need to examine those feelings and see what they can do with them. It may not even be guilt that they're feeling, but something else such as regret.


===========

On a completely different subject, I realized that today and tomorrow are the last days that Ben will be home with me since he starts at the babysitter on Monday. Then I leave Monday night and don't come back until Wednesday night. I know that he's not going to forget me, but I do worry about what effect this will have on him.

I love my job, but there are some days when I totally wish I was a SAHM, even if I suck at it.

See...you did it again

I really should just step away from this thread at this point, but may I ask what business it is of yours whether or not *I* chose not to BF??????? And purely because I DID NOT WANT TO! ugh!

I don't even know what to say about this anymore....

For the record....I'm not even offended at this point by your comments, I just don't understand them. I mean why can't a mother make her decision and not be judged so much???

blah...I don't even think I'm making sense....I'm out

 

[cdt1101]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:25:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
I think it is interesting to me how people who chose not to BF see it as some excercise in endurance full of struggles... after the first 3 weeks it was easy peasy for me. But then I look at formula feeding and cleaning bottles and the cost and the smelly poops and thing that seems like way more hassel! LOL!

***

Each parent makes different choices. Lets be honest here -- a child''s outcomes are multiply determined. So I BF my baby, great, he will benefit from that, and CDT''s baby will not. But I am betting you good money that I will do something else that will harm Hunter compared to what cdt does for her son. MULTIPLY DETERMINED outcomes have so many variables that if you obsess over any single one you will go mental. And know what is a really big risk factor for kids? A mental mom

. If BFing makes you stressed and crazy then using formula is better for your kid when you take into account all the predictors.

And besides all of this, you want to know what is a far bigger predictor of our kids outcomes than BFing?? Our income levels and education. Ok, so TGal and cdt and janiengirly did not BF and EB and me and Pandora did... I bet you good money that all our kids will end up with similar dang outcomes because we seem to all have similar socio-economic statuses (stati?).

Yup, research shows that BF is best for babies. But we all want what is best for our babies. Lets all pat ourselves on the backs for that and stop beating ourselves up about some decision we made and the small chance it will negatively affect our kids compared to all the other good things we do for them.

Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

AMEN!

 

[vizsla]

CDT- i remember vividly when i was having major issues my first week back to work what you said about guilt. and i try and remind myself of that when i feel it creeping back up. i tell myself i am a great mom and not to feel guilty about daycare or whatnots, but it gets hard when there is so much to compare yourself to, KWIM? but i thank you for being blunt about the guilt thing again.. i need to chant that over and over

mandy - totally get it... totally totally totally.... i knew this parenting thing would be ''hard'' but, like BF, didn''t really get what ''hard'' meant. or that marriages take ''work''.. whaaaaa?? how do they take ''work''? yeah, i get it now...
re: charlie.. i think what is so frustrating is that i KNOW it ticks him off that he wakes up too! he''s frustrated just like i am. so i try and give him the tools to be able to fall back asleep... but for whatever reason they just aren''t working/clicking with him now - this is where i always second guess myself and my parenting - "am i doing the ''right'' thing?" where is my crystal ball????

i think my sleep training might be similar to your de-swaddle - much harder than you think it''s supposed to be.

and have i ever mentioned that i can''t believe that english is your second language?? you would NEVER know.

 

[vizsla]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:29:43 PM
Author: cdt1101

Date: 4/8/2010 3:25:25 PM

Author: dreamer_d


Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

AMEN!

DOUBLE, TRIPLE, and QUADRUPLE AMEN TO THAT!!!

 

[Mandarine]

ha! Thanks Viz! You would know if you met me...I definitely have an accent!

It''s funny because I have no problem speaking in English, but if there is something I don''t wnat to do (like call someone to get a quote for something, or deal with insurance companies, etc) then I tell DH that I just know he would do a better job because of my "broken English"...lol

 

[vizsla]

hahahahaha! hilarious!!
so will the boys be bilingual?

i would love to teach c another language - but i don''t think my exploratory spanish is going to get him anywhere

.. do they make a rosetta stone for babies??

hahahahaha with the right marketing that could be a million $$ idea

 

[Mandarine]

absolutely!!! I speak to them in Spanish and so does the babysitter, MIL and my whole family (through Skype!). When DH gets home, we switch to English...he is fluent in Spanish (his mom is from Spain)...but he''s not comfortable in it as I am speaking in English, so we never talk in Spanish between the two of us (unless my family is present!).

Rosetta Stone for babies!!! haha...not sure, but Dora the explorer might have beat you to it! hahaha

Ohhh I have another confession.

I''m still wearing my PJs.

Yes, my babies are going to be 6 months.
Yes, I slept great last night.
Yes, my babysitter took care of them pretty much all day.
No, I wasn''t too busy at work.

I only plan on changing because DH will be home at 5pm and I have to run some errands...hehe.

What is wrong with me!!!??. At least I did brush my teeth!!!

 

[steph72276]

Quick question: I have posted before about how much E is sleeping during the day, but today is completely unlike him....he slept for 11 hours last night and he has literally slept the entire day besides waking for eating every couple of hours. No matter what I have tried (playing on the playmat, with rattles and other noisy toys, turning all the lights/tv on, playing music, stripping him down to a onesie in case he was hot, going out for a walk, he just wants to sleep and is mad if I try to wake him. He is not feverish or fussy, so I don't think he's sick. Could it be his way of dealing with a growth spurt? At what point should I get worried about him? I don't want to be the paranoid mom that calls the doc for every little thing, besides I think they will think I'm silly if I say I'm calling b/c he's sleeping too much

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:25:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
I think it is interesting to me how people who chose not to BF see it as some excercise in endurance full of struggles... after the first 3 weeks it was easy peasy for me. But then I look at formula feeding and cleaning bottles and the cost and the smelly poops and thing that seems like way more hassel! LOL!

***

Each parent makes different choices. Lets be honest here -- a child''s outcomes are multiply determined. So I BF my baby, great, he will benefit from that, and CDT''s baby will not. But I am betting you good money that I will do something else that will harm Hunter compared to what cdt does for her son. MULTIPLY DETERMINED outcomes have so many variables that if you obsess over any single one you will go mental. And know what is a really big risk factor for kids? A mental mom

. If BFing makes you stressed and crazy then using formula is better for your kid when you take into account all the predictors.

And besides all of this, you want to know what is a far bigger predictor of our kids outcomes than BFing?? Our income levels and education. Ok, so TGal and cdt and janiengirly did not BF and EB and me and Pandora did... I bet you good money that all our kids will end up with similar dang outcomes because we seem to all have similar socio-economic statuses (stati?).

Yup, research shows that BF is best for babies. But we all want what is best for our babies. Lets all pat ourselves on the backs for that and stop beating ourselves up about some decision we made and the small chance it will negatively affect our kids compared to all the other good things we do for them.

Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

Well said DD.

As for smelly poop...I guess my nose must be bad because I still am wondering when the horrid poop smell is going to start. But I think I gave Amelia very little crap so that helps. Meat definitely makes it worse though.

But honestly, I gave BF a go and formula feeding was way easier for me. No issue on how much she''s getting, bottles take 15 seconds for a quick wash and rinse (I wasn''t anal about them, and did them right after the feed), and quick. But I will say that BF probably would have been easier if I had milk. No worrying about forgetting to bring food everywhere, always the right temperature, and no clean up. But after needing to carry a SNS, medical tape, formula, and cleaning all that sh*t up, bottle feeding was a godsend and super easy. A lot of BFing moms get problems later though...I remember Tacori and her clogged ducts and feeding the kid on all fours!

I think you''re definitely right on the socio economic status - it''s a bigger piece of the puzzle when it comes to the outcome of a child. That''s why I always say, do what you want with your kid - sleep with them, CIO, or WHATEVER and the kid will turn out fine. When I say that, I''m thinking of all of my friends (same socio economic circle) and the kids are definitely having similar outcomes (provided that there is some degree of boundaries, of course.

)

RPS, I''m not going to go into it much further because I think you are trying to be helpful, but I still just disagree with some of what you are saying.

 

[Mara]

speaking of M&Ms ... i am eating peanut ones right now. and not a few but umm i have the bag by my hand. so don''t feel guilty mandarine. hehee.

kimberly.. most moms i know swear by the miracle blanket. it has little arm holes for you to actually PUT your kid''s arm into so there''s no houdini''ing out of that! however, we just got really good with the A&A blankets, our kid is crazy about getting his arms out and sometimes we have to swaddle him 2-3x before he goes down at night. we pull those blankets so tight hehe. but he is talented. the funniest thing is that by morning, granted its like 10 hours, but he always gets an arm out hahaha. i will come in and find him with one or both arms out. i have no idea how he does it at night!

random tip... but for those who are trying to soothe their babies in crib rather than doing pu/pd or if you want to move it to next step from pu/pd. J likes to have movement, but you can''t rock them if they are laying in the crib. so if he is swaddled and has the paci, i put my thumb on his paci and my fingers around his shoulder and shimmy him. since he''s swaddled he moves as one unit and it helps soothe him and the movement usually puts him to sleep within a few minutes. if he doesn''t have the paci it still works but with the paci it''s easier cuz the thumb anchors the pai and head hehe.

re: saggy boobs...i''ve got those and had them since my early 20''s so preg/bf''ing can''t be making them that much worse. bah!

RPS... i really don''t think that your daughter''s pelvis would have been so much stronger if you EBF that it would have resisted a fracture from a fall like that.

Greg was EBF and he was a totally ''sickly'' kid when he was little. now he is like the heartiest person i know. stomach of steel, constitution of steel, hardly ever sick. IMO genetics plays a huge part in things like that and nope BM is not a magic potion.

anytime ''parenting'' or ''choices'' come into play, people will get defensive if they feel like others have an opinion about it.

 

[cara]

Ah, I get it, its mostly a phrasing/context thing. I guess its hard because risk is the right word in a science paper even if its not the right word in this discussion - it describes a statistical chance of something versus being proscriptive. And you can use 'risk' to describe something very unlikely or minor, so it doesn't have the same meaning as saying 'that's risky' or whatever in general conversation. Its not that a breast fed baby WILL have have excellent immune function and no allergies and end up healthy weight, its just that there is an increased chance of certain things associated with baby-feeding method. Any particular baby might have allergies or end up with a weight problem, at some point parents do have to just weigh various +/-s and go with their decision and try not to second guess, as much as possible! (Easier said that done, I know. Remind me in a few months, eh?)

Janine, I know you don't want links to studies and whatnot but there is just gobs of scientific evidence on immune benefits of breastfeeding. Like, pages and pages of pubmed papers and review articles and whatnot. Epidemiological studies, studies on immune factors in breastmilk and their action in newborns, etc. A *lot* of scientific evidence, and I did not see a comparable number of comparable studies on the immune benefits of formula feeding or saying all those immune factors in breastmilk do nothing or have no benefit versus formula. Just saying, just cause you can find a study that provides a different viewpoint or has a finding contrary to a large body of research doesn't mean there is an *equal* body of evidence for both sides of every argument. (The intelligence one is not nearly as well-supported, intelligence is pretty controversial anyway as to what exactly you are measuring and easy to confound with other variable.)

Not saying anything about anyone's kids or choices in particular, as I said above, even if a formula-fed kid had immune problems or allergies I don't think one could 'blame' formula for it. There are just too many factors that go in to look at one kid or family and see cause and effect, and so many other factors that will affect kids over their lifetimes that its not worth going crazy focusing on one time period to the exclusion of everything else. There will be lots of choices with +/-s on both sides.

I do think the economic argument that increased health care costs mean it is okay to lecture others on their child-feeding choices is hogwash. Plenty of people are allowed the personal freedom to make choices that increase health care costs (smoking, risky sports, etc.) and that's just the way it is and its fine. The social/economic/health care costs reason is, however, a good one to make sure people have good support and education for breastfeeding - something has to counteract the commercial and convenience factors for formula but I guess its whether or not you are luring women to breastfeeding and giving them supportive tools rather than guilting and shaming them away from formula feeding? Its also a good economic reason the US should give longer maternity leaves - so many women manage to establish breastfeeding but then have problems when they go back to work.

OK, I've typed these long posts and it sure *seems* like this is some kind of political discussion

ETA: Great minds think alike dreamer! Ahh, hubs and I often talk of moving to Canada... but its so sunny here! And cold there!

 

[drk]

I missed lots of the debate and do''t need to add to it, but thank you to those who posted about supply issues and pumping. Now I don''t feel like such a loser that I only get 15-30cc (0.5-1oz) at a time when I pump after feeding K every 2-4h. It''s usually more like 15-20cc. Maybe there''s hope for me yet? Next weight check is tomorrow at 3.5weeks - hope we''re back a birthweight!

 

[janinegirly]

cara: I guess we can agree to disagree on *some* of what you pointed out. I just do not believe formula feeding has a solid connection to impaired immune system. I understand about the benefits of breastfeeding but am unconvinced that the beneficial factors are significant enough to be able to classify the choice of forumula as a riskier one.

I do agree with DD's point about socio-economic status being a much bigger factor in being predictive of child's wellbeing. I agree with Mara on genetics as well. Regarding the socio-economic factor I happen to think this is who they are intending to educate when they discuss breast is best. Which makes total sense. However, do not appreciate it being used as a way to guilt mothers who made other choices. Not saying this is what you are saying, it's just the crux of what I'm saying.

Ok, I've said enough for one day--so I'll shut up for awhile now!

 

[phoenixgirl]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:25:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
I think it is interesting to me how people who chose not to BF see it as some excercise in endurance full of struggles... after the first 3 weeks it was easy peasy for me. But then I look at formula feeding and cleaning bottles and the cost and the smelly poops and thing that seems like way more hassel! LOL!

***

. . . .


Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

OK, so I see it as some exercuse in endurance full of struggles, and I''m doing it. At this point it''s not painful and it''s relatively quick, but I am so sleep-deprived and run ragged by trying to pump more than my body really wants to. Like NovemberBride I just don''t pump as much as she needs at daycare, but I am as stubborn as I am crazy and I just haven''t been willing to throw in the towel yet. I''m sure there''d be less conflict between DH and me if I weren''t so stressed out, and I wouldn''t be so stressed out if I weren''t trying to BF a baby and work at the same time.

Amen on the last point, DD.

 

[rockpaperscissors67]

Date: 4/8/2010 3:27:00 PM
Author: cdt1101

Date: 4/8/2010 3:17:56 PM
Author: rockpaperscissors67
It''s one thing IMHO if you choose to use formula, but an entirely different thing if you are forced to because your choice was taken away from you.

See...you did it again

I really should just step away from this thread at this point, but may I ask what business it is of yours whether or not *I* chose not to BF??????? And purely because I DID NOT WANT TO! ugh!

I don''t even know what to say about this anymore....

For the record....I''m not even offended at this point by your comments, I just don''t understand them. I mean why can''t a mother make her decision and not be judged so much???

blah...I don''t even think I''m making sense....I''m out

CDT, you *chose* to take what I wrote a certain way without even asking me to clarify. How if that my fault?

It''s absolutely none of my business whether you choose to use formula or feed your kid kool aid 24/7. I believe that totally. But to take what I wrote and assume that I am making some statement about your choice not to even try breastfeeding, well, I just don''t know what to say about that.

My point that you totally didn''t understand had nothing to do with you and everything to do with a mom that wanted to breastfeed but couldn''t because despite doing everything recommended to increase milk supply, it didn''t happen for her. There are different feelings associated with having that choice taken away from you. When you are able to choose, you are in control. When your body won''t cooperate, you are not in control.

Whatever. At this point, I can see that it''s better if I move on over to the LLL website and hang there instead of continuing to apparently be such a source of pain and guilt.

 

[anchor31]

Sabine - I can totally relate on crappy support in hospitals. I didn''t have any collustrum and the nurses kept trying to pry it out of me (can I say ow?). Then during his first day he just slept and slept and I asked a nurse if I should wake him to feed him and just just say "nah"... So since nobody told me I had to feed my baby every 3 hours, I figured I could just feed on demand. And then on day 2, as we got our leave, a nurse asked me when was the last time I''d fed him and I didn''t remember so she yelled at me! The same nurse had also yelled at me because nobody told me I had to put pyjamas on him in addition to his onesie and two swaddles. Um, less blame and more information please?? Ugh.

Re: hand sucking - Jacob, like Mara''s Julian, does suck on his hands when he''s hungry. But there is definitely a difference between his "I''m just putting fingers in my mouth because I feel like it" hand-sucking and his "mommy I''m so hungry I wish milk would could out of my fists" hand-sucking.

My last comment on the BF/FF thing: I EBF and J has already been hospitalized twice. 3 days during his first week for jaundice and 7 days at 12 weeks for a UTI. Looks like he''s going to be on antibiotics for a long time. I have an immune system of steel and rarely get sick (I was FFed). DH was BFed for 3 months and he had chronic ear and throat infections as a baby and young child, to the point where he has taken so much penicilline that he is now dangerously intolerant to it. Granted, scientifically a sample of three is worthless, but I''m having a hard time seeing a correlation!!

DD - While I do believe the changes you are suggesting would be amazing and would help so many families, I just wanted to point out that we do have 12 months maternity leaves in Canada (most women start about 4 weeks before their due date), but our BFing stats are not significantly higher than the US ones (17% vs 14%).

On-site daycare would be GENIUS.

Re: pooping frequency - I don''t remember who it was who said their LO poops every 3 days (RPS?)... J poops at least 6 times a day (he poops orange too). And it gets everywhere. I do so much laundry it''s ridiculous. Can we get a happy medium please?

kimberlyh - Having one-hour long nursing sessions must be exhausting, I give you that. I guess my frustration comes from the fact that he''s crying because he''s hungry, but then he falls alseep after 5 minutes of nursing! I''m like "hello?? You''re hungry, remember?" It usually goes:
1. J cries, I put him on the boob, 5 minutes later he''s asleep.
2. I sit him on my lap to burp him/wake him up, he freaks out because he''s still hungry.
3. Switch sides, put him on the boob. 5 minutes later, he''s asleep again!
4. Burp him, change his diaper, I''m lucky if he doesn''t have another freak-out.
5. Put him on the boob again. Now he''s wide awake, but after 5 minutes he starts fussing, pulling on my boob, unlatch, relatch, etc.
6. Burp him, usually he freaks out again.
7. Switch sides, put him on the boob. 5 minutes later he''s like "oh well, I''m not really that hungry" and starts playing with the boob.
So the whole process is pretty exhausting and I often wonder if he gets enough. He probably does since he sleeps so well and is gaining well too, but I wish the nursing sessions weren''t so... complicated, for lack of better word.

 

[fieryred33143]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:02:22 PM
Author: FL Steph
Quick question: I have posted before about how much E is sleeping during the day, but today is completely unlike him....he slept for 11 hours last night and he has literally slept the entire day besides waking for eating every couple of hours. No matter what I have tried (playing on the playmat, with rattles and other noisy toys, turning all the lights/tv on, playing music, stripping him down to a onesie in case he was hot, going out for a walk, he just wants to sleep and is mad if I try to wake him. He is not feverish or fussy, so I don''t think he''s sick. Could it be his way of dealing with a growth spurt? At what point should I get worried about him? I don''t want to be the paranoid mom that calls the doc for every little thing, besides I think they will think I''m silly if I say I''m calling b/c he''s sleeping too much

How many weeks is E?

If he''s ''active'' when he''s awake (i.e. isn''t lethargic) then it could be his way of going through the growth spurt.

 

[steph72276]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:29:52 PM
Author: fiery

Date: 4/8/2010 4:02:22 PM

Author: FL Steph

Quick question: I have posted before about how much E is sleeping during the day, but today is completely unlike him....he slept for 11 hours last night and he has literally slept the entire day besides waking for eating every couple of hours. No matter what I have tried (playing on the playmat, with rattles and other noisy toys, turning all the lights/tv on, playing music, stripping him down to a onesie in case he was hot, going out for a walk, he just wants to sleep and is mad if I try to wake him. He is not feverish or fussy, so I don''t think he''s sick. Could it be his way of dealing with a growth spurt? At what point should I get worried about him? I don''t want to be the paranoid mom that calls the doc for every little thing, besides I think they will think I''m silly if I say I''m calling b/c he''s sleeping too much

How many weeks is E?


If he''s ''active'' when he''s awake (i.e. isn''t lethargic) then it could be his way of going through the growth spurt.

Fiery, he is 10 weeks. He hasn''t been very active at all today, he just wants to eat and go immediately back to sleep.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:07:23 PM
Author: cara
ETA: Great minds think alike dreamer! Ahh, hubs and I often talk of moving to Canada... but its so sunny here! And cold there!

Not where I live

It is 7-10deg celcius all winter and 18-22deg celcius all summer, half the rain of Vancouver. BEST place to live in the world. Come join us

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:25:06 PM
Author: phoenixgirl

Date: 4/8/2010 3:25:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
I think it is interesting to me how people who chose not to BF see it as some excercise in endurance full of struggles... after the first 3 weeks it was easy peasy for me. But then I look at formula feeding and cleaning bottles and the cost and the smelly poops and thing that seems like way more hassel! LOL!

***

. . . .


Instead of turning on each other and making moms who used formula feel guilt, I would like to see women put their energies towards fighting the man and getting automatic funded maternity leave in the US for 12 months, and on site subsidized childcare for women who choose to or need to work sooner. I am willing to bet you one million dollars that THAT will have a larger impact on BFing rates in the US than any of the educational programs that have been instigated in the past decades. BFing is hard in large part because working full time with a 12 week old baby is incompatible with BFing.

OK, so I see it as some exercuse in endurance full of struggles, and I''m doing it. At this point it''s not painful and it''s relatively quick, but I am so sleep-deprived and run ragged by trying to pump more than my body really wants to. Like NovemberBride I just don''t pump as much as she needs at daycare, but I am as stubborn as I am crazy and I just haven''t been willing to throw in the towel yet. I''m sure there''d be less conflict between DH and me if I weren''t so stressed out, and I wouldn''t be so stressed out if I weren''t trying to BF a baby and work at the same time.

Amen on the last point, DD.

I could not work full time and BF full time. I think that is a huge part of the PITA. I do know a few women who just hated BFing no matter what, but many of the issues seem to be trying to work and do it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:15:55 PM
Author: drk
I missed lots of the debate and do''t need to add to it, but thank you to those who posted about supply issues and pumping. Now I don''t feel like such a loser that I only get 15-30cc (0.5-1oz) at a time when I pump after feeding K every 2-4h. It''s usually more like 15-20cc. Maybe there''s hope for me yet? Next weight check is tomorrow at 3.5weeks - hope we''re back a birthweight!

Dr K you are doing great. Thos first weeks are so hard, but you will get there. Are you having to supplement with formula at all? Can''t wait to hear how porky she is as her next weigh in!

 

[Mara]

steph you''ve posted prev how E is hard to keep awake during days right? could be that it''s growth spurt combined with his regular habit of wanting to sleep more during the day? he''s 9 weeks like J right? isn''t that growth spurt time?

J slept 11.75 hours last nite and has already had 2 (albeit) short naps and is passing out again on his boppy sitting next to me. i think if he didn''t like fighting his daily naps so much he would have slept a bit more already. i am just assuming growth spurt. tomorrow he will prob want to eat all day.

oh and kim re: the feeding for an hour each time... J was never like that but he''s notoriously lazy, no amt of tickling the feet makes him eat when he is really lazy. however the LC did tell us that he was getting enough in the first 15-20 min of REALLY HUNGRY sucking (not his lazy sucking) and to not just let him just hang out on the boob. the pedi told us that too. she said if he is not eating, pop him off, don''t let him sit there and be lazy.

rps please don''t leave...you are a very valuable asset to the women here who breastfeed. the way i see it is you are an LC so of course you believe strongly in breast is best and formula is ''second best''. that is how every LC i have ever met thinks, it''s a function of the job right? maybe that is why i also don''t take offense to anything re: FF vs BM. also historically...i have to say that you are typically non-judgemental so i really think that at this point the whole discussion is just a moot point.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/8/2010 4:25:16 PM
Author: anchor31

DD - While I do believe the changes you are suggesting would be amazing and would help so many families, I just wanted to point out that we do have 12 months maternity leaves in Canada (most women start about 4 weeks before their due date), but our BFing stats are not significantly higher than the US ones (17% vs 14%).

On-site daycare would be GENIUS.

Yes, I have seen those stats, I live in BC, and they are sad. I think in BC it is 30% of women EBF for 6 months and our rates are the highest in Canada. The year of maternity leave is a new thing, though, and I suspect that it takes a while for social changes to change norms, especially when norms are not to BF right now. Most people cannot live on EI premiums for mate leave, either. It is only 40% of your gross income up to a max of $400 per week or some such thing. If you are a low income woman, then you would only get a pittance. So I wonder how many peopel take advantage of the full year off?