Search for Rubies

[icy_jade]

Big red flag here. Why do you have to get it AGL certifier yourself? My advice: Have the sale conditional on the results of the AGL results and offer to pay for the report price and shipping fees. Too much money at stake here…

I personally like it a lot, but would only spend 20k on the basis of an AGL grading report that I am happy with

For a 20k item, I will also expect decent certification from a reliable/trusted lab. Too much money at risk. Easy to say will refund etc but difficult to get the money back after, especially when it’s a different country, etc. Agree re paying for the cert first rather than the entire amount. If it doesn’t work out, you are only out by maybe 5% of cost vs 100%

 

[JewelledEscalators]

I've used Gem and Pearl lab before, and I've seen major auction houses (Bonhams, Sothebys, Christies etc.) use it too. It's one of the very few gem labs available in London.

Bonhams:

Bonhams : TWO JADEITE BANGLES

Each of circular form, inner circumference approx. 18.0mm

www.bonhams.com

Sothebys:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_emerald-and-diamond-ring-9967

I understand if people haven't heard of a gem lab that is not in their own country and might feel they can't judge whether it is reliable or not, but labelling overseas gem labs as unreliable or untrustworthy for this reason alone is not I think very reasonable. In theory, that would lead to a monopoly of a whole industry, dominated by American labs and would make it very difficult for gemmologists in the future to start their own labs and lead to lack of competition.

FYI - in the UK, any item purchased online has a 14 day return window by law regardless of the reason, and if the stone in this case came back as not ruby or sythetic and it was sold as natural then either way you would be entitled to a refund.

At face value, it might seem easier for the item to be certed by AGL by the vendor but if they are based in the UK, they would have to send it overseas and back and who would pay for the shipping and insurance for this? On the other hand, if lab opinions differ, sending it back would be a hassle given the likely high import charges you'd have to claim back.

If peace of mind is what I'm after, I would personally request a second cert by another London/UK lab - maybe GCS as I think some PS'ers are familiar with that lab. It's not cheap but nor is the Pearl and Gem lab but cheaper and less hassle than paying for AGL cert or arranging a return.

Fees – GCS

gcslab.co.uk

 

[JewelledEscalators]

I am assuming that the vendor is based in the UK

 

[Lilith112]

Big red flag here. Why do you have to get it AGL certifier yourself? My advice: Have the sale conditional on the results of the AGL results and offer to pay for the report price and shipping fees. Too much money at stake here…

I personally like it a lot, but would only spend 20k on the basis of an AGL grading report that I am happy with

Ahhh I see.

For context, I had asked him abt getting an AGL report, and he initially responded that he'll check with one of his acquaintances who works at AGL; he later responded that his acquaintance has already left AGL, ergo he can't get a discount for the certification. I then offered to cover the cost of the report myself, and he then responded that he was worried about the cost of shipping/customs/etc to get the ring sent over to AGL. Does that sound a bit weird to you?

 

[Lilith112]

I've used Gem and Pearl lab before, and I've seen major auction houses (Bonhams, Sothebys, Christies etc.) use it too. It's one of the very few gem labs available in London.

Bonhams:

Bonhams : TWO JADEITE BANGLES

Each of circular form, inner circumference approx. 18.0mm

www.bonhams.com

Sothebys:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_emerald-and-diamond-ring-9967

I understand if people haven't heard of a gem lab that is not in their own country and might feel they can't judge whether it is reliable or not, but labelling overseas gem labs as unreliable or untrustworthy for this reason alone is not I think very reasonable. In theory, that would lead to a monopoly of a whole industry, dominated by American labs and would make it very difficult for gemmologists in the future to start their own labs and lead to lack of competition.

FYI - in the UK, any item purchased online has a 14 day return window by law regardless of the reason, and if the stone in this case came back as not ruby or sythetic and it was sold as natural then either way you would be entitled to a refund.

At face value, it might seem easier for the item to be certed by AGL by the vendor but if they are based in the UK, they would have to send it overseas and back and who would pay for the shipping and insurance for this? On the other hand, if lab opinions differ, sending it back would be a hassle given the likely high import charges you'd have to claim back.

If peace of mind is what I'm after, I would personally request a second cert by another London/UK lab - maybe GCS as I think some PS'ers are familiar with that lab. It's not cheap but nor is the Pearl and Gem lab but cheaper and less hassle than paying for AGL cert or arranging a return.

Fees – GCS

gcslab.co.uk

Ahhhh I see I see. Yes, the seller is based in the UK, and he mentioned his concern with shipping/insuring the stone to AGL and then having it come back to the UK and then being shipped to me.

RE: GCS thank you for the recommendation! I think I'll bring that up too, though it is reassuring to hear that Gem and Pearl Lab certs have also been used by major auction houses; I was not aware of that!

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Ahhh I see.

For context, I had asked him abt getting an AGL report, and he initially responded that he'll check with one of his acquaintances who works at AGL; he later responded that his acquaintance has already left AGL, ergo he can't get a discount for the certification. I then offered to cover the cost of the report myself, and he then responded that he was worried about the cost of shipping/customs/etc to get the ring sent over to AGL. Does that sound a bit weird to you?

No. As far as I'm aware, there's not cheap way to send an item over a certain value overseas. Royal Mail (our version of USPS) only insures up to £500, and not sure if they always cover fine jewellery.

You can send by FedEx or DHL (about 60 dollars one way) but you can only get loss coverage for up to 1000 GBP by FedEx (I think it's similar with DHL) - you can pay additional charges for the value of the item but it's misleading because this doesn't equate to insurance coverage for the full value of the item (legally you're still only covered for 1000 GBP).

You would also likely get customs hassle where FedEx will ask you for various things and the vendor would have to liaise with AGL and to and fro on that. This can takes days. Then if the vendor sends it under the correct customs code as 'repairs and processing', upon re-entry into the UK they will have to pay 24% on the cert fee and return shipping cost + Fed Ex handling fee. If they use the wrong code, they might have to pay 24% on the full value of the ring then claim it back later from customs as a error.

I think maybe DHL has a special option to cover jewellery for the full value but it's only available to business customers though that might be dependent on volume of shipping not sure. If the vendor doesn't have something like that, they will have to purchase insurance from elsewhere.

I don't know how often FedEx/DHL lose packages (hopefully not often) but if the value of close to 20K USD, I can understand the vendor being apprehensive.

 

[JewelledEscalators]

No. As far as I'm aware, there's not cheap way to send an item over a certain value overseas. Royal Mail (our version of USPS) only insures up to £500, and not sure if they always cover fine jewellery.

You can send by FedEx or DHL (about 60 dollars one way) but you can only get loss coverage for up to 1000 GBP by FedEx (I think it's similar with DHL) - you can pay additional charges for the value of the item but it's misleading because this doesn't equate to insurance coverage for the full value of the item (legally you're still only covered for 1000 GBP).

You would also likely get customs hassle where FedEx will ask you for various things and the vendor would have to liaise with AGL and to and fro on that. This can takes days. Then if the vendor sends it under the correct customs code as 'repairs and processing', upon re-entry into the UK they will have to pay 24% on the cert fee and return shipping cost + Fed Ex handling fee. If they use the wrong code, they might have to pay 24% on the full value of the ring then claim it back later from customs as a error.

I think maybe DHL has a special option to cover jewellery for the full value but it's only available to business customers though that might be dependent on volume of shipping not sure. If the vendor doesn't have something like that, they will have to purchase insurance from elsewhere.

I don't know how often FedEx/DHL lose packages (hopefully not often) but if the value of close to 20K USD, I can understand the vendor being apprehensive.

Sorry didn't realise you were asking this to @VividRed not me - but it's there for reference in case you were not aware. I recently sent an item to the US for repairs and processing and the FedEx/customs process was a bit of a nightmare.

 

[Lilith112]

No. As far as I'm aware, there's not cheap way to send an item over a certain value overseas. Royal Mail (our version of USPS) only insures up to £500, and not sure if they always cover fine jewellery.

You can send by FedEx or DHL (about 60 dollars one way) but you can only get loss coverage for up to 1000 GBP by FedEx (I think it's similar with DHL) - you can pay additional charges for the value of the item but it's misleading because this doesn't equate to insurance coverage for the full value of the item (legally you're still only covered for 1000 GBP).

You would also likely get customs hassle where FedEx will ask you for various things and the vendor would have to liaise with AGL and to and fro on that. This can takes days. Then if the vendor sends it under the correct customs code as 'repairs and processing', upon re-entry into the UK they will have to pay 24% on the cert fee and return shipping cost + Fed Ex handling fee. If they use the wrong code, they might have to pay 24% on the full value of the ring then claim it back later from customs as a error.

I think maybe DHL has a special option to cover jewellery for the full value but it's only available to business customers though that might be dependent on volume of shipping not sure. If the vendor doesn't have something like that, they will have to purchase insurance from elsewhere.

I don't know how often FedEx/DHL lose packages (hopefully not often) but if the value of close to 20K USD, I can understand the vendor being apprehensive.

Ahhhh I see, got it.

Just out of curiosity, do you know where I can find more information about Gem & Pearl Lab? I'd just like to read more/learn more about them if possible before making a decision; thank you so much for your helpful feedback!

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Ahhhh I see, got it.

Just out of curiosity, do you know where I can find more information about Gem & Pearl Lab? I'd just like to read more/learn more about them if possible before making a decision; thank you so much for your helpful feedback!

The Gem & Pearl Lab - Pearl & Gem Identification

Stephen Kennedy is a gemmologist with experience of laboratory-based pearl and gem identification dating back to 1980. The Gem and Pearl Laboratory Limited was founded in 2003.

www.thegemlab.co.uk

No problem. I think it's a one man lab run by Steve Kennedy - he has an office in Hatton Garden (main jewellery district in England) and also in Horsham.

In the UK, there are very few gem labs operating at the moment that tests for origin and treatment for coloured stones - there used to be WGI and IGI but I think they have both been closed since Covid. There is also the Anchor lab which is linked/part of the assay office, but they can't test for everything with coloured stones. Hence a lot of certs for jewels in London/UK are from either Gem and Pearl Lab or GCS.

The GCS verbal fee at 90 GBP including VAT is not so expensive - they can tell you over the phone what it is and it's on the receipt I believe. You can also upgrade to the paper report for the difference (which is about 90 GBP).

 

[icy_jade]

Ahhhh I see I see. Yes, the seller is based in the UK, and he mentioned his concern with shipping/insuring the stone to AGL and then having it come back to the UK and then being shipped to me.

RE: GCS thank you for the recommendation! I think I'll bring that up too, though it is reassuring to hear that Gem and Pearl Lab certs have also been used by major auction houses; I was not aware of that!

Ok I thought it’s a US seller so not being able to send to a reliable lab in US sounds super dodgy. If it’s a UK seller then pls use whatever reliable lab in UK. Frankly it makes no sense to send stones from other parts of the world to cert in AGL and risk taxes, possible loss in transit, etc… (plus the lab isn’t really known in Asia for example, not sure re Europe. It’s just that PS has mostly US based members hence the advocacy for US labs).

I’m not sure if sending to other labs in Europe is an option but GRS is in France and Switzerland. I know the Gubelin and SSEF certs are very pricey (and with long wait times) so won’t suggest them. But yes anywhere outside of UK will have same issue re taxes and possible loss in transit so can understand that most vendors will not be willing to risk it.

 

[Lilith112]

Ok I thought it’s a US seller so not being able to send to a reliable lab in US sounds super dodgy. If it’s a UK seller then pls use whatever reliable lab in UK. Frankly it makes no sense to send stones from other parts of the world to cert in AGL and risk taxes, possible loss in transit, etc… (plus the lab isn’t really known in Asia for example, not sure re Europe. It’s just that PS has mostly US based members hence the advocacy for US labs).

I’m not sure if sending to other labs in Europe is an option but GRS is in France and Switzerland. I know the Gubelin and SSEF certs are very pricey (and with long wait times) so won’t suggest them. But yes anywhere outside of UK will have same issue re taxes and possible loss in transit so can understand that most vendors will not be willing to risk it.

Understood!!!

One more question-- in the latest batch of videos, what do you think of how even the color is? I'm not sure if it's a monitor thing, but when i saw the videos on my phone, it looked like there was a bit of a window in the center (or it goes dimmer in the center under less than ideal lighting)-- just wondering, but do you see that as well?

 

[Lilith112]

The Gem & Pearl Lab - Pearl & Gem Identification

Stephen Kennedy is a gemmologist with experience of laboratory-based pearl and gem identification dating back to 1980. The Gem and Pearl Laboratory Limited was founded in 2003.

www.thegemlab.co.uk

No problem. I think it's a one man lab run by Steve Kennedy - he has an office in Hatton Garden (main jewellery district in England) and also in Horsham.

In the UK, there are very few gem labs operating at the moment that tests for origin and treatment for coloured stones - there used to be WGI and IGI but I think they have both been closed since Covid. There is also the Anchor lab which is linked/part of the assay office, but they can't test for everything with coloured stones. Hence a lot of certs for jewels in London/UK are from either Gem and Pearl Lab or GCS.

The GCS verbal fee at 90 GBP including VAT is not so expensive - they can tell you over the phone what it is and it's on the receipt I believe. You can also upgrade to the paper report for the difference (which is about 90 GBP).

Understood, thank you so much for the explanation!

 

[voce]

Understood!!!

One more question-- in the latest batch of videos, what do you think of how even the color is? I'm not sure if it's a monitor thing, but when i saw the videos on my phone, it looked like there was a bit of a window in the center (or it goes dimmer in the center under less than ideal lighting)-- just wondering, but do you see that as well?

I didn't catch it on this ruby, but if you're getting a vintage piece, it's to be expected. If that still bothers you, I'd abandon the idea of trying to find a ready-to-wear ring, find the ideal loose gem, and then go custom with the ring design. I don't remember ever seeing an exceptional color ruby in a vintage ring without at least a small window.

 

[Lilith112]

Soooo I found another potential candidate- just 1.2ct, but SSEF certified to be non-heated and Burmese origin, USD16k value:

Shaded sunlight



Bright sunlight

 

[Lilith112]

Indoor natural lighting:



Certificate:

 

[Lilith112]

Curious what everyone thinks of this compared to the other ruby option!

Just from my own observations, this one seems a more true red?

 

[Crochet_Sparkles]

Indoor natural lighting:



Certificate:

From someone who is not an expert at all...this one seems somewhat "flat"? Like, dull. Not as glowy. I prefer the other. But again, entirely subjective.

 

[minousbijoux]

Are your pics representative of what you see? If so, it seems that this one lacks fluorescence, which would be an important factor to me personally.

 

[Wombats]

Where are you finding these gorgeous stones?!
I also prefer the earlier Ruby, which seems more vibrant, glowy.

 

[VividRed]

I much prefer the 1.6ct quoted at 20k than this one. SSEF is the best Swiss lab (some say the best in the world), they are extremely strict and rigorous in giving trade names. Most labs would have given this 1.2ct the pigeon blood trade name, which to me would not be right. It looks a bit muddy / cloudy and not what I would want in a ruby.

Is the 1.6ct off the table entirely?

 

[Lilith112]

I much prefer the 1.6ct quoted at 20k than this one. SSEF is the best Swiss lab (some say the best in the world), they are extremely strict and rigorous in giving trade names. Most labs would have given this 1.2ct the pigeon blood trade name, which to me would not be right. It looks a bit muddy / cloudy and not what I would want in a ruby.

Is the 1.6ct off the table entirely?

Nope! I just want to make sure it's def the best option (but I am leaning towards getting it). I noticed there's a bit of a window, but plan on resetting the ruby anyways so I think I'll see what ny jeweler can do about minimizing it!

 

[VividRed]

Nope! I just want to make sure it's def the best option (but I am leaning towards getting it). I noticed there's a bit of a window, but plan on resetting the ruby anyways so I think I'll see what ny jeweler can do about minimizing it!

I didn’t see a window but there may of course be one. Bear in mind, there aren’t many precision cut unheated Burmese rubies out there

 

[landscape]

1.68ct is a high quality ruby

 

[Lilith112]

I didn’t see a window but there may of course be one. Bear in mind, there aren’t many precision cut unheated Burmese rubies out there

Noted!

1.68ct is a high quality ruby

Ohhhh the loose 1.68ct ruby?

Also I was looking at Sotheby's website and noticed this ring:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_Gold-1.74ct-Burmese-Ruby-and-Diamond-Ring

I'm not a huge fan of the setting but--- the ruby looks nice? And it comes with a Gubelin certificate.

Is it possible to reach out to Sothebys and request additional natural lighting pics? Or would I have to schedule an in-person appointment?

 

[JewelledEscalators]

Any developments? Sorry, I'm just living vicariously through your shopping!

 

[maru8888777]

@Lilith112 I also came by to ask if you found something... this was such a good learning thread!

 

[Lilith112]

I've been missing since I was looking around! I met Inken in NYC and saw some of her estate pieces!









Also saw a cushion that I'm considering!

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I've been missing since I was looking around! I met Inken in NYC and saw some of her estate pieces!









Also saw a cushion that I'm considering!

I love the mounting on that cushion and I happen to also like pinkish red ruby so, I'm all about that one! Is the picture accurate, or is it less/more pink to the eye? How much of the purple do you see?

 

[Autumn in New England]

I've been missing since I was looking around! I met Inken in NYC and saw some of her estate pieces!









Also saw a cushion that I'm considering!

How awesome you met up with Inken! I'd love to play in her jewelry box.

 

[maru8888777]

What a great update! I'm glad the search is still on!